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Wins vs. Quality Starts

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Postby bleach168 » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:42 pm

Tavish wrote:
bleach168 wrote:Agree. The save stat is pretty bad too. But at least you can't give up 3+ runs and still get a save. However, you can give up 3 or way more runs and still notch a win. I say Wins are the worse stat with saves coming in second.


Sure you can. All saves worry about is that the conditions are right when you enter the game, that you never give up the lead, and you finish the game. If I enter in the 8th with a one run lead, then my team scores 10 runs in the top of the 9th, I can give up 10 runs and still get a save.


You're right. I should have known that. I don't ever remember it happening though. It's must be pretty rare.
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Postby JGreer » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:15 pm

OhMrScottyTrav06 wrote:
phillibuster wrote:The problem is that if a batter hits a homerun, or gets an rbi, that stat isn't taken away from them if the "team" loses. However, a win is taken away from the pitcher is the "team" loses.

A win is not as dependent on how a pitcher "pitches" as it is more dependent on the number of runs his team scores in relation to the other team.

A win is a team stat, not an individual fantasy baseball player stat.

OhMrScottyTrav06 wrote:Ehh, I guess I'm old fashion and like the win category. It is the whole point of the game isn't it? Quality Starts would be nice, but I don't think Yahoo's gonna add it as a category anytime soon.


I'm just saying it's the whole point of any game, winning... not saying that Quality Starts wouldn't show who the better pitcher is (because it would), I just like Wins because it's always been there and I've never been a part of a league with Quality Starts...


Since you're such a big Angels fan...........how do you feel about the stat "complete game"?????? You may want to draft Contreras, Buehrle, Garland, and Garcia this year.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:06 pm

We've used CG before and I usually lobby for it as it does change the value of guys like that quite a bit.
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Postby WittyC » Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:43 pm

Tweaking catagories will only lead to headaches, because every time you change one thing (such as W to CG) someone will want to change something else (avg. to OBP, for example).

An argument could be made against every stat used in standard 5x5 catagories that they don't accurately measure a player's value. In fact, a true "purist" league would use total bases and IP as the only two stat catagories.

The whole point of fantasy baseball isn't to determine a player's value. That is a job for a real-life GM. The point of fantasy baseball is to predict how a player will perform in each of five catagories -- no matter how inaccurately they depict that player's value. At some point we just all need to realize that though the system is flawed, it's still an awful lot of fun.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Tue Jan 03, 2006 1:19 am

It's also a lot of fun if you use MORE than 5 cats though. I can see the 5x5 format as having some appeal and the first year we experimented w/ 5x5 the second half for a second half league but it really did not have the same appeal, I dunno if it was the secondhalf bit of it or the categories. There are some guys who throw CG and some who don't but, many weeks, if you got a CG, it would be a big advantage over another team. At least in 1/13 of the cats.
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Postby jjigglers » Wed Jan 04, 2006 7:41 am

My biggest gripe against using QS as a category in fantasy baseball is that it doesn't acount for ballpark conditions. Colorado pitchers would have few (if any) QS not because they aren't good (even though they really aren't), but because that's just how the park works.

Same if the wind is blowing out, it's a hot & dry day, etc. Sure a win depends on your team, but so do save opportunities (and in turn, saves), runs scored, runs batted in, and to a lesser extent, ERA and WHIP.

Wins are just if you pitched well enough (and long enough) to win the game for your team. QS are if you pitched well enough (and long enough) to win the game for the average team. Might as well use DIPS ERA as opposed to ERA if you are going on that path, but that's another cookie.
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Postby phillibuster » Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:50 am

Actually, most Colorado pitchers aren't good, the good one's won't pitch there. And your explanation contradicts itself, a QS is very dependent on the ballpark. In that park under those conditions, the pitcher has to pitch at least 6 innings and give up 3 or fewer runs. The ballpark that day will have a major effect on that.

And Wins are not just if you pitched well enough (and long enough) to win the game for your team. For a win...all you have to do is stay in at least 5 innings and your team outscore the other team. Then your team has to maintain that lead. You don't even have to pitch well. You could give up 7 runs in 5 innings and get the win.

But I do understand the "traditionalists" argument, that a W is very much part of the game of baseball, and actually one of the most important statistics, but to the individual pitcher, it is bunk.

jjigglers wrote:My biggest gripe against using QS as a category in fantasy baseball is that it doesn't acount for ballpark conditions. Colorado pitchers would have few (if any) QS not because they aren't good (even though they really aren't), but because that's just how the park works.

Same if the wind is blowing out, it's a hot & dry day, etc. Sure a win depends on your team, but so do save opportunities (and in turn, saves), runs scored, runs batted in, and to a lesser extent, ERA and WHIP.

Wins are just if you pitched well enough (and long enough) to win the game for your team. QS are if you pitched well enough (and long enough) to win the game for the average team. Might as well use DIPS ERA as opposed to ERA if you are going on that path, but that's another cookie.
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Postby tarpon17 » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:09 am

I think you get the QS if you use ERA and WHIP as categories. If your pitcher pitches well, then its reflected in those categories.
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Postby phillibuster » Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:33 am

The proplem I have is that the pitcher himself is responsible for the WHIP and ERA, the stats designate how well he pitches. A win is more dependent on how many runs his team scores in relatioin to how many he gives up...it's a crappy fantasy baseball stat.

And WHIP is not really related to QS. Walks and hits are not directly related to Runs.




tarpon17 wrote:I think you get the QS if you use ERA and WHIP as categories. If your pitcher pitches well, then its reflected in those categories.
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Postby BritSox » Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:20 pm

Having wins in there somewhere also accounts somewhat for the unearned runs given up when the pitcher craps the bed after a two-out error.
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