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Wins vs. Quality Starts

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Postby OhMrScottyTrav06 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:24 pm

Ehh, I guess I'm old fashion and like the win category. It is the whole point of the game isn't it? Quality Starts would be nice, but I don't think Yahoo's gonna add it as a category anytime soon.
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Postby phillibuster » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:32 pm

The problem is that if a batter hits a homerun, or gets an rbi, that stat isn't taken away from them if the "team" loses. However, a win is taken away from the pitcher is the "team" loses.

A win is not as dependent on how a pitcher "pitches" as it is more dependent on the number of runs his team scores in relation to the other team.

A win is a team stat, not an individual fantasy baseball player stat.

OhMrScottyTrav06 wrote:Ehh, I guess I'm old fashion and like the win category. It is the whole point of the game isn't it? Quality Starts would be nice, but I don't think Yahoo's gonna add it as a category anytime soon.
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Postby OhMrScottyTrav06 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 4:38 pm

phillibuster wrote:The problem is that if a batter hits a homerun, or gets an rbi, that stat isn't taken away from them if the "team" loses. However, a win is taken away from the pitcher is the "team" loses.

A win is not as dependent on how a pitcher "pitches" as it is more dependent on the number of runs his team scores in relation to the other team.

A win is a team stat, not an individual fantasy baseball player stat.

OhMrScottyTrav06 wrote:Ehh, I guess I'm old fashion and like the win category. It is the whole point of the game isn't it? Quality Starts would be nice, but I don't think Yahoo's gonna add it as a category anytime soon.


I'm just saying it's the whole point of any game, winning... not saying that Quality Starts wouldn't show who the better pitcher is (because it would), I just like Wins because it's always been there and I've never been a part of a league with Quality Starts...
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Postby TheYanks04 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:15 pm

Wins are what it is all about. No one pays for Quality Starts which is a bogus stat anyway (When is a 4.5 ERA aquality?). You draft pitchers in 5x5 partly based on their projected win totals which obviously has a lot to do with the team they are on. It is part of the game.

Fantasy baseball/Roto is supposed to emulate real baseball...not satisfy Jamesian BS mathematical computer models or aid the fantasy player in his projections.
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Postby phillibuster » Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:27 pm

Wins are what it is all about to a MLB baseball team. And fantasy baseball doesn't really emulate real baseball, we are extracting individual players from their MLB teams and using their stats for our fantasy teams. Bottom line is that a QS better indicates how a pitcher pitches when compared to a W. A W is less dependent on how a pitcher pitches.

And you have to understand that a pitchers ERA during all of his quality starts is not 4.50...probably much lower around the 2.0's.



TheYanks04 wrote:Wins are what it is all about. No one pays for Quality Starts which is a bogus stat anyway (When is a 4.5 ERA aquality?). You draft pitchers in 5x5 partly based on their projected win totals which obviously has a lot to do with the team they are on. It is part of the game.

Fantasy baseball/Roto is supposed to emulate real baseball...not satisfy Jamesian BS mathematical computer models or aid the fantasy player in his projections.
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Postby AcidRock23 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:37 pm

but W are too wierd, not linked to performance. There are plenty of outings where an SP does well and doesn't win and just as many where they get torched and suck and do win. QS measures the performance more accurately...
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Postby TheYanks04 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:37 pm

Fantasy Baseball is supposed to emulate real baseball. No model is perfect. The point being that winning is the name of the game, not posting some silly, meaningless stat no one in the real world is paying for or cares about outside of some statheads. Your argument is to take a model that may be say 80% accurate (just to pick a numebr) and change it to one that is 70% accurate to the real thing so that you can better project your SPs. That is the cart before the horse or the tail wagging the dog. Stats do not define the game. The game defines the stats. The real world uses wins which is why Clemens gets the Cy Young over RJ in 2004. You may not agree with it, but that is the real world and the fantasy game should follow accordingly whenever possible.



phillibuster wrote:Wins are what it is all about to a MLB baseball team. And fantasy baseball doesn't really emulate real baseball, we are extracting individual players from their MLB teams and using their stats for our fantasy teams. Bottom line is that a QS better indicates how a pitcher pitches when compared to a W. A W is less dependent on how a pitcher pitches.

And you have to understand that a pitchers ERA during all of his quality starts is not 4.50...probably much lower around the 2.0's.



TheYanks04 wrote:Wins are what it is all about. No one pays for Quality Starts which is a bogus stat anyway (When is a 4.5 ERA aquality?). You draft pitchers in 5x5 partly based on their projected win totals which obviously has a lot to do with the team they are on. It is part of the game.

Fantasy baseball/Roto is supposed to emulate real baseball...not satisfy Jamesian BS mathematical computer models or aid the fantasy player in his projections.
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Postby phillibuster » Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:50 pm

I don't know how you can call it a meaningless stat, when it has more to do with how a pitcher performs than a W.

As I stated earlier, if a batter hits a homerun with 3 rbi's in a game and the team loses the game, the player is awarded those stats. But if a pitcher performs well and the team loses, he is not awarded a statistic for performing well.

The W is a flawed statistic as far as a pitcher is concerned, face it.

If I have Pedro and the Mets lead 4-1 going into the 9th, Looper blows the save, Marlins win 5-4. He would be awarded a QS, Pedro had nothing to do with Looper blowing the save, the stat was stripped from him. The team lost Pedro his individual performance victory, it's not fair to fantasy players to have to deal with a team driven statistic such as a win.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:00 pm

phillibuster wrote:I don't know how you can call it a meaningless stat, when it has more to do with how a pitcher performs than a W.

As I stated earlier, if a batter hits a homerun with 3 rbi's in a game and the team loses the game, the player is awarded those stats. But if a pitcher performs well and the team loses, he is not awarded a statistic for performing well.

The W is a flawed statistic as far as a pitcher is concerned, face it.

If I have Pedro and the Mets lead 4-1 going into the 9th, Looper blows the save, Marlins win 5-4. He would be awarded a QS, Pedro had nothing to do with Looper blowing the save, the stat was stripped from him. The team lost Pedro his individual performance victory, it's not fair to fantasy players to have to deal with a team driven statistic such as a win.



And when MLB and the MLBPA change the Ws to QSs you might have a point. Until then, you are aguing that stats in existence and used for over a hundred years should be changed because you can't play fantasy as well with them or think that someone should be credited with something even though they LOST or did not finish what they started and someone else blew it for them after the starter ran out of gas.

As a fan, I really do not care if my pitcher wins 5-4 or 2-1. I care about my team winning. Bottom line is that it is a team game and pitchers are measured to a degree on how well they do for the team. You want to look at individual performance you can look at ERA or WHIP. Ws is a team element to a degree just as rbis and runs are for hitters. It works on both sides and NO one is paying a pitcher who is 11-15 with a 3.7 ERA big bucks just becuase he has a lot of Quality Starts (this years free agent market not withstanding).
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Postby davidmarver » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:31 pm

Part of fantasy baseball is interpreting a player's true talent in a fantasy sense.

Sure, quality starts is a better statistic than wins, at least in the sense in that it reflects the pitcher's actual performance.

But that's just it...you use quality starts (and run support) to predict wins for a pitcher...otherwise there's really no predicting to be made, rather just copying data and redrafting based on last season's totals.

Instead, you let someone else draft Bartolo Colon while you grab Roger Clemens and laugh rather loudly half-way through the season.
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