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Postby bleach168 » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:47 pm

blankman wrote:
dannyolbb wrote:I don't have time to argue this right now, but any report that claims that The Drudge Report is a liberal mouthpiece has its head on backwards.


Maybe try reading the whole article. The author explains it.

Another finding that contradicted conventional wisdom was that the Drudge Report was slightly left of center.

"One thing people should keep in mind is that our data for the Drudge Report was based almost entirely on the articles that the Drudge Report lists on other Web sites," said Groseclose. "Very little was based on the stories that Matt Drudge himself wrote. The fact that the Drudge Report appears left of center is merely a reflection of the overall bias of the media."


Links to articles to other sites shouldn't be included in the study.

They should be trying to quantify each action,

Anti-abortion editorial. Conservative +3.
Iraq casualty report. Liberal +1.
Interviewing Al Sharpton. Conservative +50.
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Postby Phatferd » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:45 pm

The one question I have always wondered regarding Republican thinking is the Death Penalty.

Most Republicans are Christians, there is no denying this. Isn't it God's will to decide who dies and when, for his own reasons? If so then why support the Death Penalty? If God want's someone to die, he will impose his will and make it happen.

Also, if they are so against killing a fetus, then why would they want to kill a human being? I know they probably did something as unforgiven as possible, but it's a life and shouldn't God be the only one allowed to take or give life?
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Postby RugbyD » Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:57 pm

Phatferd wrote:The one question I have always wondered regarding Republican thinking is the Death Penalty.

Most Republicans are Christians, there is no denying this. Isn't it God's will to decide who dies and when, for his own reasons? If so then why support the Death Penalty? If God want's someone to die, he will impose his will and make it happen.

Also, if they are so against killing a fetus, then why would they want to kill a human being? I know they probably did something as unforgiven as possible, but it's a life and shouldn't God be the only one allowed to take or give life?

must be an old testament v. new testament thing.
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Postby wrveres » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:38 pm

Big Pimpin wrote:
acsguitar wrote:Anyways Republicans are still evil and there is no arguing that ;-D


When you're right, you're right.

I'm totally against the death penalty for murderers and other violent felons. ;-D
And I'm all for the slaughter of innocent unborn children. ;-D
And I'm all for paying a bigger share of my hard-earned money so that unemployed slackers can live a better life. After all, it's not their fault they don't have a job. ;-D
And I'm all for taking guns away from the law-abiding citizens of our country so that the only armed people in the US are criminals. ;-D
And I'm all for infringement upon my civil liberties. ;-D
And I'm all for universal health care. It's working so well in Canada. ;-D
And I totally stand for dis-incentivizing personal initiative. What good is that? ;-D
And I'm definitely against asserting our country as a world power. We should just be making friends with everyone else instead. ;-D

Oh wait, nevermind. :-t :-t

I guess I'm a Republican. :-D


bravo ;-D
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Postby Big Pimpin » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:08 am

RugbyD wrote:
Phatferd wrote:The one question I have always wondered regarding Republican thinking is the Death Penalty.

Most Republicans are Christians, there is no denying this. Isn't it God's will to decide who dies and when, for his own reasons? If so then why support the Death Penalty? If God want's someone to die, he will impose his will and make it happen.

Also, if they are so against killing a fetus, then why would they want to kill a human being? I know they probably did something as unforgiven as possible, but it's a life and shouldn't God be the only one allowed to take or give life?

must be an old testament v. new testament thing.


Actually, surprisingly enough, many Christians have a difficult time with capital punishment. After all, the new testament preaches forgiveness. The death penalty goes along much better with the whole "eye for an eye" thing taught in the old testament. My support of the death penalty and opposition of abortion have nothing to do with Christian beliefs.

As far as the death penalty is concerned, I believe that people who commit heinous crimes deserved to be punished. Would I rather see the guy who rapes a woman get castrated? Or the guy who stabs a family get stabbed and left to fend for himself, and if he dies like they did then so be it? ABSOLUTELY. However, our society has decided that such punishment is unacceptable. The best alternative is the death penalty.

Besides the fact that holding someone in prison for life does a couple things that end up being detrimental to society: it costs the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars, and it overcrowds the prison system so that when other violent criminals come along they have to be kicked loose because there's not enough room.

I'm also very much against abortion. You're talking there about taking an innocent life (and yes, I consider it a life), and why? Usually it's as a form of birth control. I can see how it could be a "good" thing if you're talking about potential death for the mother or something along those lines, but that is very rarely the case. The most common reason for an abortion is because a girl is either too stupid or too careless and gets herself knocked up. Well that's not the baby's fault. That's her fault. She has many options with which to not become pregnant, and abortion should not be one of them.

If a woman doesn't want her baby, there are thousands of people out there who would love to adopt an American baby. But they're not given the chance because of abortion. It's very interesting that Norma McCauley ("Jane Roe" from Roe v. Wade) went on to become an anti-abortion activist. And don't say "well you'd think different if you were a woman" because my wife (and I know plenty of other women as well) who are just as disgusted by the thought of abortion as I am.
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Postby curious_george_43545 » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:13 am

A Very Wise man once wrote wrote:I'm also very much against abortion. You're talking there about taking an innocent life (and yes, I consider it a life), and why? Usually it's as a form of birth control. I can see how it could be a "good" thing if you're talking about potential death for the mother or something along those lines, but that is very rarely the case. The most common reason for an abortion is because a girl is either too stupid or too careless and gets herself knocked up. Well that's not the baby's fault. That's her fault. She has many options with which to not become pregnant, and abortion should not be one of them.

If a woman doesn't want her baby, there are thousands of people out there who would love to adopt an American baby. But they're not given the chance because of abortion. It's very interesting that Norma McCauley ("Jane Roe" from Roe v. Wade) went on to become an anti-abortion activist. And don't say "well you'd think different if you were a woman" because my wife (and I know plenty of other women as well) who are just as disgusted by the thought of abortion as I am.


Well said, I agree abortion should only be used in extremely special cases, such as rape for example, but not in stupid 16 year old gets knocked up cases, which is about 99% of them.
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Postby Phatferd » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:10 am

curious_george_43545 wrote:
A Very Wise man once wrote wrote:I'm also very much against abortion. You're talking there about taking an innocent life (and yes, I consider it a life), and why? Usually it's as a form of birth control. I can see how it could be a "good" thing if you're talking about potential death for the mother or something along those lines, but that is very rarely the case. The most common reason for an abortion is because a girl is either too stupid or too careless and gets herself knocked up. Well that's not the baby's fault. That's her fault. She has many options with which to not become pregnant, and abortion should not be one of them.

If a woman doesn't want her baby, there are thousands of people out there who would love to adopt an American baby. But they're not given the chance because of abortion. It's very interesting that Norma McCauley ("Jane Roe" from Roe v. Wade) went on to become an anti-abortion activist. And don't say "well you'd think different if you were a woman" because my wife (and I know plenty of other women as well) who are just as disgusted by the thought of abortion as I am.


Well said, I agree abortion should only be used in extremely special cases, such as rape for example, but not in stupid 16 year old gets knocked up cases, which is about 99% of them.


The sad irony with this is a majority of those kids are the ones overcrowding the jails in 20 years and live off your tax dollars.

I respect everyones beliefs, I don't agree to a lot of peoples (seems to be the majority for the past 6 years :-t ) beliefs. Big Pimpin, I am not attacking you when I say this, I respect your decisions, however, I think you are being dishonest with yourself if you are saying your belief on abortion has nothing to do with religion. I don't know if you are Christian, Catholic, Jewish or whatever, but you gain you beliefs and morals from your religion and upbringing, therefore religion ultimately sets the foundation of your thoughts on these kinds of matters.

If you are concerned with overcrowding then you are looking at the totally wrong issue. The people on Death Row are less than 1% of people filling up our prisons. If you want to make prisons less crowded then support the propositions to reduce drug related punishments. Drug offenders are the ones overcrowding our jails, most harmless to nobody but themselves.

Why don't we spend more money on recitivism programs to get these people turned around while in jail so they don't come right back. In reality the biggest problem with our system is we want these people to go back out into the world after serving their time without a hitch.

I am all for sending people to jail to pay their debts, but these people have almost zero chance of ever being a success after their term. Nobody wants to hire an ex-criminal. Half of these people came from families that didn't provide the emotional and educational support to make them succeed in life in the first place. We want to protect the unborn because, "Well that's not the baby's fault", however, it's not the born childs fault to be raised by drug addicted/sexually abusice/uninvolved parents.

Then the kid becomes a teen/adult and continues the path that he only knew and has his own kid who follows the same path and so on. We want to create this big to do about protecting a fetus, however, we don't want to do enough about those already living. Sometimes I think it's better for the kids sake that he never sees the world he was intended for. I know this is a harsh thing to say, but in my opinion its reality. I know not every kid from a screwed up home becomes a danger to society, but the majority do.

My final thought on this whole thing is I personally don't believe in abortion. I, however, see the other side. I have a very big problem forcing my beliefs onto others, knowing how much I can't stand those who do. Because of this, I believe in the freedom of choice, allowing those people to make their own decision for themselves. I can't tell somebody what will be best for their particular situation, because I'm not in their shoes. I can, however, make my own and would do everything I could to talk someone out of abortion and finding alternative means.
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Postby dannyolbb » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:10 am

WharfRat wrote:Using citations is problematic. Questions worth asking:

1) If a story gives one organization a total of 15 column inches devoted to its view, and gives two organizations 3 column inches to express their views, would this then count as a liberal story?

2) Is use of a source automatically a sign that the reporter subscribes to that source's views, or that the reporter is even subconsciously trying to facilitate the pervasion of those views? Or does equating sourcing with intent = a leap of faith?

3) Given the occasionally dramatic influence of PR operations on news operations, might this mean that certain liberal organizations have more effective media operations? What proportion of potential news stories pitched by liberals get covered, as proposed to conservative pitches? Do liberals simply make more noise from left field, getting them more coverage?

4) What role has real-world politics played on coverage? Was there a spike in liberal coverage, coinciding with the election of George W, since conservative groups are less newsworthy with conservative power as the current DC status quo? Was there a spike in liberal coverage during the Congressional Republican push to impeach Clinton?

5) If Tony Blankley is writing a story, mentions his critics four times, and only mentions his allies once, does this then count as liberal +3?

I don't think anybody should be getting worked up over this in any way until some of these things are made clear.


I agree with this wholeheartedly, and am quoting it in whole so that people stop ignoring it to spout pointless platitudes.

Also, if we are going to be discussing politics, wouldn't a more salient topic be the illegal Bush wiretaps? You know the ones I'm talking about, the ones that John Dean called "an impeachable offense."
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Postby WharfRat » Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:41 am

Nice post, Phatferd. ;-D
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Postby Coppermine » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:55 am

Great posts everyone... let me just chime in.

First, I agree completely that overcrowding, in both jail and in societies, is a serious problem. Phatferd hit the nail on the head when he said that many jails are overcrowded due to drug offenders who pose no threat to anyone but themselves, or in some cases like with marijuna, not even themselves. Our drug laws are antiquated and the "War on Drugs" is futile. To lock a kid up for having some weed is a great tragedy in our society, as smoking pot is not only relatively harmless, but also is no indication that the user is or will ever be a criminal. Hard drugs like heroin and coke are different monsters altogether... they are dangerous, addictive and destroy lives. They don't, however, make users criminals but rather victims of their addiction.

For example. I heard an interesting story the other day on NPR about OxyCotin, a prescription drug that has opium-like effects and is being abused by about 1 out of 5 teenagers in the country. It is extremely expensive, upwards of $80/pill and is often used by upper class students who use it to show their affluence. It's highly addictive and often leads to heroin addiciton (since it's much cheaper) and ultimately could result in death. This is just a perfect example of how locking people up for using drugs really doesn't deter people. It's all about treatment, education and responsibility. People addicted to hard drugs deserve treatment, not prison sentences. And people who smoke weed, well, i don't smoke it, but I sure as hell don't condone locking someone up who does.

Abortion is a sticky subject, and morality and religion do play huge roles. Most Christian and other faiths wholeheartedly reject abortion as murder, creating a clear black-and-white stance for Americans to take on the subject... my church says it's wrong, therefore it is. And it is, don't get me wrong on that. However, there is a very specific medical reason that abortion is illegal, besides civil rights, and it is a reason that is often not addressed because it is so morbid. Outlawing abortion would greatly lead to an increase in "coat hanger abortions," that is, women and even more dangerously, teenage girls, would perform abortion procedures on themselves in fear of their pregnancy going to term. It is a dangerous proposition, and one of the biggest reasons why in almost every Western societies (about 61% of the world's population), abortion is legal.

Again, it's about responsibility and education. If we teach abstinence-only in our schools and churches, we are setting teenagers up for disaster; whether that be having a child before they are emotionally and financially able, or worse, having an abortion. Abortion is not birth control, but it is seemingly the only viable alternative for some women who grow up in a society where teenage pregnancy is a sin in itself. I am not a woman, so personally I feel as if I shouldn't even have a say in the matter; and it also seems unfair that blow-hard old men want to make the decisions for everyone. But it's a catch 22 to say that having sex before marriage is a sin (how can people honestly still believe that?) and then when someone gets pregnant, to say covering it up is even worse. A lot of girls use abortion as a way to avoid the scorn of their society, their parents, communities; dirty looks of the teenage girl who got "knocked up." If she can get an abortion and avoid all of that, laws and morals aren't going to get in the way.

Curious George stated that 99% of abortions are from stupid 16 year olds who can't keep their legs shut. While that is a common misconception, that is an overgeneralization, as 99% is pretty steep. In fact, 60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children. Only 19% of women who get abortions are teenagers. In addition, there has been a 43% decline in the aboriton rate since the introduction of emergency contraception, or the "morning after" pill which was banned for OTC use by the FDA because of political pressures.
(http://womensissues.about.com/cs/abortionstats/a/aaabortionstats.htm)
The problem there, as I said, is a lack of education and personal responsiblity. Teenagers are going to have sex no matter how much we try to scare them out of it. When they find themselves pregnant in a world that won't accept their position, they're left with few choices to the contrary. Perhaps if we focused more energy on birth control and responsible sexual behavior, abortion rates would decrease on their own. But living in the religious society that we do... and it is a great disservice to say that religious principles are under attack or going away, because they're not... we find it hard to condone any kind of sexual behavior, even if it could lead to a decrease in teenage pregnancy.

Overwhelmingly though, the vast majority of Americans who are pro-choice only support abortion in cases where it will save the mother's life or in cases of incest and rape. Many Americans take the black and white stance of being pro-life. All of these stances have their merits, but the real world is rarely black and white and neither is the topic of abortion. While it is easy to say that abortion should be illegal, it's also irresponsible. We should try to move our socity to a voluntarily pro-life society... because just like with the issue of drug use, you simply can't legislate people against their own decisions, regardless of how your personal morals come into play.
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