Marte for Crisp close..... - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2015 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Marte for Crisp close.....

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby The Cow » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:07 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
The Cow wrote: I don't know too many of these guys


"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

"Ignorance, like a false tooth, is easier to detect when the mouth is open."

As has been pointed out, no one ever claimed that Marte was a # 5 prospect. (although he was rated #5 or better by many organizations in 2005).

If you are going to discuss prospects, then I suggest you learn a little bit more than Felix Hernandez before you start to spout off at the mouth.

Yes, Marte's ranking is falling slightly so far this year, but it's not like he's plummeting. Last year, his average ranking was a 6.4. In the two comparable rankings this year, he's fallen from 6 to 16 spots (13th to 29th in one and 7th to 13th in the other). If the other rankings come in like that, he'll probably be rated somewhere from 10th to 30th by most.

But, of course, this discussion has never been about where he ranks, except according to you. The discussion has been what he is worth in trade. And, you've yet to provide any convincing evidence that he's worth less than a more costly player who is a worse fielder and hitter.


My whole point when I said "I don't know too many of these guys" is that I doubt many of the members of this cafe or baseball fans in general know who these guys are. The reason I/we/they don't know who they are is that they are not big names. You see Marte is a big name prospect, not a top prospect, but a big name prospect.

My reasoning for bringing up his ranking is to show that he does not have near the trade value that you think he has. What did the Braves get for him? Renteria an overpaid, below average SS in terms of offense and defense. Now would I trade Crisp for Renteria no way! Isn't Renteria making 10 mil a year? For what? If Marte's trade value was so high the Braves could have gotten a better SS for him. But the reason the Braves were only able to land Renteria is that Marte's trade value is lower than you think. The reason Marte's trade value is lower than you think is simple he just isn't as good as you think he is. If you want to defend Renteria and claim him to be a great SS feel free, I could use a good laugh. How many fantasy owners have been burned by Renteria of late?

The Braves are a smart organization they know what they are doing. If the Braves thought all they could get for Marte was Renteria well what does that say about Marte? It tells me that the Braves did not think much of Marte. It tells me the Braves thought we had better get something for Marte before people realize that he is not anywhere near the talent they think he is. better deal Marte before his value is zilch.

Cow
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1754
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:46 am

The Cow wrote:My whole point when I said "I don't know too many of these guys" is that I doubt many of the members of this cafe or baseball fans in general know who these guys are. The reason I/we/they don't know who they are is that they are not big names. You see Marte is a big name prospect, not a top prospect, but a big name prospect.

My reasoning for bringing up his ranking is to show that he does not have near the trade value that you think he has. What did the Braves get for him? Renteria an overpaid, below average SS in terms of offense and defense. Now would I trade Crisp for Renteria no way! Isn't Renteria making 10 mil a year? For what? If Marte's trade value was so high the Braves could have gotten a better SS for him. But the reason the Braves were only able to land Renteria is that Marte's trade value is lower than you think. The reason Marte's trade value is lower than you think is simple he just isn't as good as you think he is. If you want to defend Renteria and claim him to be a great SS feel free, I could use a good laugh. How many fantasy owners have been burned by Renteria of late?

The Braves are a smart organization they know what they are doing. If the Braves thought all they could get for Marte was Renteria well what does that say about Marte? It tells me that the Braves did not think much of Marte. It tells me the Braves thought we had better get something for Marte before people realize that he is not anywhere near the talent they think he is. better deal Marte before his value is zilch.

Cow


You'd be wrong. I can guarantee you that the frequent posters on this site know everyone of those top prospects. Marte is a big name prospect because he's been a top prospect for 3 straight years.

The fact is, the Braves backed themselves into a corner. They renegotiated Chipper's contract in the hopes of being able to land a big OF bat, and then couldn't work out anything better than moving him to 3B and trading for Renteria. The Red Sox paid part of Renteria's contract to make it work economically for them after they effectively blocked themselves from being able to play Marte.

Apparently, at least one other smart baseball organization doesn't think Crisp is worth Marte. So, I'm happy to wait and gloat later when Marte succeeds.
GotowarMissAgnes
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy Expert
Posts: 5516
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Happy Valley

Postby The Cow » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:04 pm

The Braves could have put Marte in the OF and start him over Francouer or Kelly Johnson. That tells me the Braves like Johnson and Francouer better than Marte. I don't care how fast a team rushes a player through the minors it does not make him a better player. Marte could play in AAA as an insurance policy for an OF or Chipper. The Braves did not have to deal the guy. The Braves did need a SS, but to deal Marte a supposedly top prospect for an average at best SS in Renteria tells me that Marte just isn't that good.
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1754
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Postby Yoda » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:26 pm

Cow I asked you a legitimate question but you have not answered yet.

How many 21 year olds in his first full season at AAA in 05 had a .500+ SLG? Just curious.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Postby The Cow » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:31 pm

Yoda wrote:Cow I asked you a legitimate question but you have not answered yet.

How many 21 year olds in his first full season at AAA in 05 had a .500+ SLG? Just curious.


Sample size alert!! Slugging over .500 for one year in AAA well thats just not enough ABs to give that stat much merit. Could just be a fluke. But nah he is a phenom LOL!
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1754
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Postby Yoda » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:37 pm

The Cow wrote:
Yoda wrote:Cow I asked you a legitimate question but you have not answered yet.

How many 21 year olds in his first full season at AAA in 05 had a .500+ SLG? Just curious.


Sample size alert!! Slugging over .500 for one year in AAA well thats just not enough ABs to give that stat much merit. Could just be a fluke. But nah he is a phenom LOL!


Actually 389 ABs is plenty big enough sample size.

How about 2004? Marte, in his first year at AA posted a .500+ SLG. Notice a trend?
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." ~George Carlin
Yoda
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 21344
Joined: 21 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 15th green...

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:42 pm

The Cow wrote:The Braves could have put Marte in the OF and start him over Francouer or Kelly Johnson. That tells me the Braves like Johnson and Francouer better than Marte. I don't care how fast a team rushes a player through the minors it does not make him a better player. Marte could play in AAA as an insurance policy for an OF or Chipper. The Braves did not have to deal the guy. The Braves did need a SS, but to deal Marte a supposedly top prospect for an average at best SS in Renteria tells me that Marte just isn't that good.


It tells me that they like the combination of defense and offense in the OF those two give them, but is that surprising considering that Marte's never played OF? His offense in a corner OF position is hardly all that remarkable, and doesn't distinguish him from the braves other OF prospects. And it's not like Francouer or Johnson were not decent prospects themselves.

Who really knows what the Braves were thinking? The Braves did not have to deal Marte, but they did have to do something to address their SS need. You assume that the deal indicates that they didn't think Marte was a top prospect. I assume that it means they were really desperate for a SS and felt Marte was the extra chip they could afford to deal.

Regardless of what you or I assume the Braves think, whether or not a player is a top prospect is not based on that. It's based on what their minor leaqgue performance says. And that minor league performance says that Marte is a top prospect. You can argue perceptions all you want. The facts tell the story.
GotowarMissAgnes
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy Expert
Posts: 5516
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Happy Valley

Postby The Cow » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:49 pm

Agnes you said Marte projects as a .260 hitter in the bigs, but yet he is a top prospect? Maybe he becomes the next Adam Dunn who is far from a superstar, but I don't think he will be as good as Dunn. Though he will pile up the K's, but they don't matter well unless the score is tied and there is a man on 3rd with 1 out, but hey sac flies or even ground ball outs that drive in runs don't count right??? Yeah K's are bad.
Give Snakes his due!!!! Snakes deserves the fantasy expert icon!!! Go Snakes!!!!
The Cow
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1754
Joined: 12 May 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Eating refried beans

Postby RyanK » Tue Dec 20, 2005 6:49 pm

When you have an OF of Andrew Jones, Kelly Johnson and Jeff Francouer, and then Chipper Jones at 3b and a hole at shortstop. WHat is the logical idea, someone offers you a legit starter at SS for a prospect that wont play for 3 years, even if you moved him to the OF, there would be a learning year of how to play and positional aspects of OF his first year, then his second year may still be a learning year, but you have 3 OF who are polished in the skill department so he would just be sitting in AAA or riding the bench in the MLB.
He can still be a top 5 prospect but Atlanta had a need to be filled and a prospect that just wasnt going to play as much as they would love to still have him.
So just because he was traded does not mean he is not a great prospect, kid is freaking 21... I really hope he is not traded for Coco Crisp, the red sox infield will be too good in a few years with youk at first and pedoria at short and loretta at 2nd
Image
RyanK
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Graphics Expert
Posts: 2839
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Dec 20, 2005 7:25 pm

The Cow wrote:Agnes you said Marte projects as a .260 hitter in the bigs, but yet he is a top prospect? Maybe he becomes the next Adam Dunn who is far from a superstar, but I don't think he will be as good as Dunn. Though he will pile up the K's, but they don't matter well unless the score is tied and there is a man on 3rd with 1 out, but hey sac flies or even ground ball outs that drive in runs don't count right??? Yeah K's are bad.


No, I said that his performance last year translates as a .260 hitter. Like most players, Marte can be expected to improve his performance somewhere around 3 percent per year from age 20 to age 27. So, each percentage point is about .026, so a 3 percent improvement per year is about .008. So, this year (age 22), I'd expect Marte to hit about .268. In 2007, about .275. In 2008, about .283. In 2009, about .291. In 2010-2012, you might seem him creep over .300, but then you'd expect a downward slide.

So, as I said, very similar to a Chavez type of player, hitting in the .270 to .290 range in his prime.

And, unless you are actually going to read a little and remove your ignorance about the relative importance of K's, I'd encourage you to stop embarrassing yourself.
GotowarMissAgnes
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy Expert
Posts: 5516
Joined: 12 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Happy Valley

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: neuronss and 10 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact