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Marte for Crisp close.....

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Postby pelotero » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:08 pm

:-° Please, someone STOP!.. I think this has gone too long now.. I'm expecting a breakthrough and all I get is Apples are better than oranges..

Is it just me?.. Let's move on..

Thanks ;-D
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Postby The Cow » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:37 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
The Cow wrote:Thats funny! Don't you think the real reason Crisp is in LF is Grady Sizemore??? I mean the Tribe can't play both in CF somebody has to play LF. Having Sizemore and Crisp is huge for the Tribe they cover alot of ground.

You have shown that Marte slightly outslugged Kelly Johnson, but how did he fair against the real top prospects???? I am sorry, but a guy that hits .270 in the minors obviosly has some holes in his swing. Will Marte be a solid player, probably. Will he be an all-star well no. Crede was once a top prospect, I see Marte I see Crede.

Name a CF that the Sox could get for Marte and Mota that is better than Crisp? I think that is the question. I know the Tribe would not deal Sizemore for that duo so scratch him off the list.

This is a good deal for Boston.


No, I think the reason Crisp was moved was because he was 8 runs below average in fielder as a CF. After playing nothing but CF in the minors, The Indians had him play one-third of his games in LF in 2003-04, before Sizemore even showed up, because he can't play CF very well.

Crisp is much better in LF, even above average. But he's not above average in the tougher CF.

Marte fared quite well against other top prospects. 2006 prospect lists aren't all out yet, but in 2005, he was ranked no lower than 3rd among 3B by anyone.
http://www.attheplate.com/2005/05_rookiee.htm

So far in top 100 prospect lists for 2006, he's been ranked, 5, 13, 26, and 29.
http://www.attheplate.com/2006/06_rookied.htm

You continue to myopically focus on a BA that was achieved in pitcher's parks. Increase that BA by 5%, which is what it would take to get it to a neutral park and what do you get? You get a neutral park BA of .288. Marte will be a very solid player, though he's not likely to hit for a .300 average. As I said before, you can look for him to hit .275 to .290 regularly, with good power. He's not an A-Rod, but he'll be similar to Chavez or Rolen.

The comparison to Crede is silly. Crede never topped #36 on prospect lists, and that was for one year. He was more often ranked in the 90s (94, 96). Marte's been a top 30 prospect every year, cracking the top 10 at times. Unlike Crede, who always struggled to make adjustments as he advanced through the minors, Marte has always adjusted quickly.

The Red Sox could still get Damon, and not have to trade Marte or Mota. And the assumption that the Red Sox need someone as good as Crisp is not really the case, since they've upgraded elsewhere. Wilkerson, DeJesus, Michaels, Reed, Lofton are all available for less than that, probably, and would be reasonable short or mid-term solutions in CF. The only reason you trade Marte is if you get a long-term CF solution in return...and that's not Crisp.


Some guys ranked higher according to the website you cited are:
Billy Butler, Anthony Reyes, Chuck James, Mike Carp, Marcus Sanders, Sean Rodriguez, Saltamachia??, Mathew Kemp, Casey Janssen, and Scott Baker. I don't know too many of these guys the biggest name is probably Scott Baker who projects to be a #3 or #4 SP. So if Marte is that good then why is he ranked below a #3 or #4 SP? Sure rankings are flawed. I think people in baseball are realizing that Marte is not as good as they originally thought. His average ranking based on the 4 sites listed is nowhere near #5. Lets see it is 5+13+26+29= 73/4= 18.25. My point is that Marte is not a top 5 prospect thanks for proving my point he looks to be a #18.25 prospect and falling. Thanks for proving my point :-° .

As for Crisp being moved to LF because of his defense thats nuts. Sizemore is the reason. You know it and I know it the fact that you continue to not acknowledge this fact is ignorant at best. If not for Juan Gonzalez's injury last year, Crisp would have been the Tribe's CFer last year. Instead they call up their top prospect, Sizemore, and well have him play CF.

Marte is not a top 5 prospect he just isn't. He is not in the same class as say a Felix Hernandez. Not even close.
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Postby mamorris » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:52 pm

The Cow wrote:Some guys ranked higher according to the website you cited are:
Billy Butler, Anthony Reyes, Chuck James, Mike Carp, Marcus Sanders, Sean Rodriguez, Saltamachia??, Mathew Kemp, Casey Janssen, and Scott Baker. I don't know too many of these guys the biggest name is probably Scott Baker who projects to be a #3 or #4 SP. So if Marte is that good then why is he ranked below a #3 or #4 SP?

That's a really bad argument there. If David Luciani (Baseball Notebook) rates Scott Baker as the #19 prospect in baseball, then clearly he doesn't see him as a #3-#4 pitcher. Only one person mentioned Marte being a top-5 prospect overall, and even then it was put in the form of a question, so I'm not sure why you have this hangup.
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Postby The Cow » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:02 pm

People in this thread have been saying that Marte is a top 5 prospect and have been trying to defend that statement. When in fact Marte is not a top 5 prospect.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:49 pm

The Cow wrote:People in this thread have been saying that Marte is a top 5 prospect and have been trying to defend that statement. When in fact Marte is not a top 5 prospect.


In fact, Marte is a top 5 prospect, according to some prospect lists. So, you're wrong.

Of course, if this argument was about his ranking, it would have ended long ago. Really, no one ever really made any claims about his prospect rating until my most recent post. One person asked: "Isn't Marte a top 5 prospect?", and you subsequently ran with that question.

But, no one, other than you, has been defending a ranking. Other posters and I have been defending the claim that Marte is likely to be a good quality major leaguer and a better player than Coco Crisp and is worth more in trade than that.

And, just as you are wrong about whether or not Marte is a top 5 prospect, the facts clearly show you are wrong on the latter point, too.
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Postby Yoda » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:58 pm

The Cow wrote:People in this thread have been saying that Marte is a top 5 prospect and have been trying to defend that statement. When in fact Marte is not a top 5 prospect.


How is Marte not a top 5 prospect? I'd love to hear this argument.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:10 pm

The Cow wrote: I don't know too many of these guys


"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"

"Ignorance, like a false tooth, is easier to detect when the mouth is open."

As has been pointed out, no one ever claimed that Marte was a # 5 prospect. (although he was rated #5 or better by many organizations in 2005).

If you are going to discuss prospects, then I suggest you learn a little bit more than Felix Hernandez before you start to spout off at the mouth.

Yes, Marte's ranking is falling slightly so far this year, but it's not like he's plummeting. Last year, his average ranking was a 6.4. In the two comparable rankings this year, he's fallen from 6 to 16 spots (13th to 29th in one and 7th to 13th in the other). If the other rankings come in like that, he'll probably be rated somewhere from 10th to 30th by most.

But, of course, this discussion has never been about where he ranks, except according to you. The discussion has been what he is worth in trade. And, you've yet to provide any convincing evidence that he's worth less than a more costly player who is a worse fielder and hitter.
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Postby Yoda » Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:54 pm

In 05, can anyone tell me other than Marte, how many 21 year olds at their first stop at AAA put up close to .372 OBP and .506 SLG?

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/ ... arte.shtml
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Postby The Cow » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:47 am

In 2005 can anyone tell me of any overrated prospects that hit a robust .140????
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Postby brandnew » Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:06 am

That may be the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my entire life. Wow.

In a whole 52 FREAKING AB's you're criticizing him? Wow, just wow.

I'm going to love watching you try to get your ass out of your mouth when Marte gets to (for the first time!) repeat a league and dominates this year. ;-D
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