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Postby Phatferd » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:27 pm

I agree that Wilkerson is a better player than Benson, however, I don't think he is a better player for the Rangers. The Rangers need a pitcher and even though Benson is an average to slightly above average (minus the contract) pitcher, he would help that team more than a Wilkerson.

I see no value in the proposed deal involving the Jays. Benson is certainly better than Batista IMO and Hudson is only valuable with the glove. Most of you fail to remember that Soriano carried the Rangers for a lot of the early games last year. Without him, they would have been 5-8 games worse.

My point is Soriano is more valuable than Wilkerson. The drop off in production between say a guy like Delluci/Nix/Hildalgo (who would played the 3rd OF spot if Mench and Wilkerson play) is not as drastic as the dropoff in offensive production at 2B now. If you replace Soriano with Kinsler or DeRosa or Hudson that drop off is huge compared to the dropoff in OF production.

You still have no replacement for Rogers or additions, which are needed for this team to contend.

I also debate whether this division is up in the air like some suggest. The Angels are clearly the front-runners, however, Texas may still be the 3rd best team. Oakland has a young staff that is coming together and an offense that took off once Payton and Crosby started playing.

Seattle's staff may even be better than Texas'. I truly feel that in order for Texas to have a fighting chance at this division, they need to find 2 pretty damn good pitchers by April.

It now looks like they are out of the Morris chase, so that's another pitcher who could help out of the picture.
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Postby slomo007 » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:38 pm

As for Morris, given the price he's asking I'm very glad they dropped out of the hunt. He is not a valuable pitcher in my eyes.

I would prefer to keep Wilkerson, and I agree with you the Batista is a bum....I don't want him in Texas either. I also think Orlando Hudson is overrated, so I could live without him as well, especially given the price Toronto is asking for.

I could easily part with Adrian Gonzalez, Nix, or Mench. Mench is a good clubhouse guy, and the city overall likes him (his nickname is Shrek), but sometimes even guys like that must be traded. Adrian Gonzalez should get a decent pitcher, he's a good prospect the only problem is that Texas doesn't have anywhere to play him. Unless, of course, Nevin continues playing horrible enough to just flat out bench his old butt.

I do agree with you that the division is not very wide open. Texas needs 2 pitchers, as you said, to come in and play THIS year in order to have a shot at competing.

We have 3 very tradeable pieces, and need 2 in return. This is where Texas will decide their fate, but as of now I love the Soriano deal. It all depends what they do from here on out, however.

And I would argue that Wilkerson will help the team offensively more than Benson and his 4.5-5.0 ERA in Arlington would help the pitching staff. He is a class A bum. :-)
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:44 pm

Mookie4ever wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
slomo007 wrote:And this adds what to the discussion?

Aren't we talking about A-Rod/Soriano here?

Every team has its own list of mistakes, Texas is no different.


Are you really this dense or just trying to pick a fight?


Yeah it looks like you are the dense one GTWMA - you misunderstood his post.


Well, I was just going to let this drop, because I figured if someone couldn't connect such huge dots, it wasn't worth the effort. But, since Mookie seems to be in a particularly pugnacious mood, I'll bite.

The discussion in this thread makes two common mistakes. The second, already being well debated, is that Soriano is worth a decent pitcher or pitching prospect. As others have pointed out, Soriano's real value is well, well below his fantasy value, and every team already knows he's in a steep, steep decline hidden only by his home park. He's a poor fielder to boot, which further limits his value. And, to cap things off, the Rangers simply can't let Kinsler wasye another minute in the minors. Put those all together, and the Rangers aren't going to get a good offer from anyone, this off-season or during the season next year, for a player like Soriano.

The second mistake in the thread is the misidentification of the Ranger's mistake. The comment made was that the A-Rod contract was a mistake. It was not. A-Rod provided excellent value for the Rangers. Their first mistake was in making some really poor decisions in signing pitchers. They obviously had plenty of money to get pitching to complement A-Rod and their great offense; they just spent it on CRA*.

Their second mistake was then blaming their failure not on those mistakes, but on the A-Rod contract.

Their third mistake was thinking they could solve the pitching problem by freeing up more money (to spend unwisely) by trading a great player worth all the money they were paying him, for a much,much, much worse player.

And that chain of results resulted in them having an aging and rapidly declining Soriano approaching arbitration with very little value to other teams.

If you understand even a teeny-tiny bit about how to measure player performance and the economics of baseball, that chain of events, the reason why I brought up the bad pitching contracts, and its connection to the A-Rod/Soriano discussion was clear.
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Postby slomo007 » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:48 pm

GTWMA - good post. I agree with you for the most part.

I think many of those contracts were desperate and feeble attempts to get ANYONE to come to Arlington and pitch. I think what many are overlooking however, is that Texas HAS to overpay anyone to pitch there. That's just a given fact. But I do agree with you that the guys they chose to overpay were horrible selections.

In the future, you may want to elaborate a little bit in your posts. It was very unclear to everyone what you were trying to say.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:38 pm

slomo007 wrote:GTWMA - good post. I agree with you for the most part.

I think many of those contracts were desperate and feeble attempts to get ANYONE to come to Arlington and pitch. I think what many are overlooking however, is that Texas HAS to overpay anyone to pitch there. That's just a given fact. But I do agree with you that the guys they chose to overpay were horrible selections.

In the future, you may want to elaborate a little bit in your posts. It was very unclear to everyone what you were trying to say.


Thanks, Slomo. And apologies if I offended you...I was in a pretty lousy mood myself.

I agree that they may have to overpay pitchers...so if you are going to do that, you'd better overpay good pitchers. I really can't remember TX chasing good pitchers!
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Postby slomo007 » Sun Dec 11, 2005 10:48 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
slomo007 wrote:GTWMA - good post. I agree with you for the most part.

I think many of those contracts were desperate and feeble attempts to get ANYONE to come to Arlington and pitch. I think what many are overlooking however, is that Texas HAS to overpay anyone to pitch there. That's just a given fact. But I do agree with you that the guys they chose to overpay were horrible selections.

In the future, you may want to elaborate a little bit in your posts. It was very unclear to everyone what you were trying to say.


Thanks, Slomo. And apologies if I offended you...I was in a pretty lousy mood myself.

I agree that they may have to overpay pitchers...so if you are going to do that, you'd better overpay good pitchers. I really can't remember TX chasing good pitchers!


Thanks for the apology, it was just a misunderstanding.

To be honest I would be happy with paying Roger almost any amount of money for one year of service.

Sign Roger Clemens, Sign Jerrod Washburn (2-3 year deal, nothing more!), and trade Gonzalez for a 4th or 5th starter that is MLB ready.

That would be my plan of approach, but I realize getting Clemens is fairly far fetched. Perhaps if they can get Washburn first, and then make a trade...it will show Roger that the Rangers are serious about winning this year. Perhaps that's all it would take. I still think he'll be back in Houston next year though.
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Postby Madison » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:39 am

Phatferd wrote:
Madison wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Teams do give up great pitching to rent a player for a playoff drive all the time.

Ponson to SF a couple years back?

Schmidt to SF?
Kazmir for VZAM?

Teams every single year that are in contention overspend to add a bat to their lineup. Every single year, more often than not they will take guys with half a year left, knowing they won't resign him. They do it to help their team that year, they don't look ahead.

Look at Nomar, the Cubs took him for half a year an then resigned him the next year to a 1 year deal. They took him on for 1/2 a year.


How ironic. Ponson goes from garbage to a "great pitcher" in 3 pages. :-b :-b :-b

Anyway, why can't you wrap your brain around this situation and understand it?

A. The Rangers need starting pitching to compete THIS YEAR.

B. No one would trade reasonable pitching for Soriano.

C. Waiting until the trade deadline to move Soriano for "prospects" ;-7 would remove any chance the Rangers have this year.

D. So the Rangers trade Soriano for the pieces needed to land reasonable starting pitching for THIS YEAR, and also open up payroll to sign free agent pitching if they so choose (Save $10 million by trading Soriano).

E. The Rangers trade the excess OF's for starting pitching and/or sign some reasonable starting pitching.

This whole thing is really, really simple. ;-)


Whoever said Ponson was good? He's god awful.


Umm.....You said he was great. I bolded it for you in your quote above.

Phatferd wrote:You still fail to understand what I am saying. I am not saying the Rangers would get a pitching prospect. I am saying at the very least that's what they would get. My point is, even IF they don't get a number 2 pitcher for Soriano they could AT LEAST get a top prospect. If they ended up getting plan B, it's a hell of a lot better than what they got from the Nationals (for this team).

Your staff sucked majorly last year and that was with a guy like Kenny Rogers, who no longer is on the team. Hersheiser is no longer the pitching coach and that will hurt.

Now I am reading that they are close to moving Wilkerson for Batista and Hudson! If they do this then they are a lot dumber than I thought.

You would have basically traded Soriano (the best production of any 2Bman) for Batista (not good) and Hudson (good with the glove and thats about it).

So not only is your offense weaker, but your rotation is still not any better.


I doubt we go after Hudson. I'd say Wilkerson for Batista and League sounds decent to me. Kinsler will most likely wind up with the job at 2B next year. How he pans out has yet to be seen. Oh, and we'd still have Sledge too.

How does losing Hersheiser hurt us? He's stunk. Our pitching has stunk. No offense to Hersheiser, but losing him might turn out to be a good thing.

Anyhow, there's still 4 months of offseason left. I wouldn't think too much about any teams at this point since there's still so much time to make deals. B-)

Well, except for the Marlins......They are going to stink big time. :-b
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Postby Mookie4ever » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:45 am

GTWMA,

If you are going to enter into a discussion about the Texas A-Rod fall out to argue that signing bad pitchers was the first domino to drop in an inevitable series of bad moves.....then say so. Just posting a bunch of salaries and then calling another poster dense for not following your unwritten chain of logic is not kosher. Then following it up by saying that we don't understand your post b/c we don't "understand even a teeny-tiny bit about how to measure player performance and the economics of baseball" :-° not cool.

btw - I'm not pugnacious. I'm cantankerous and truculent but never pugnacious.

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:I agree that they may have to overpay pitchers...so if you are going to do that, you'd better overpay good pitchers. I really can't remember TX chasing good pitchers!


I guess in retrospect you can say this but at the time CHP was an all-star pitcher with an 85-54 record and coming off 2 consecutive sub 3.50 ERA 200+SO seasons.

Rogers was a good signing and Codero was a good trade.
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Postby Madison » Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:16 am

Mookie4ever wrote:I'm not pugnacious. I'm cantankerous and truculent but never pugnacious.


Is that what you call it? ;-7


Hehehehehe. :-b
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Postby chadlincoln » Mon Dec 12, 2005 11:43 am

Madison wrote:
Mookie4ever wrote:I'm not pugnacious. I'm cantankerous and truculent but never pugnacious.


Is that what you call it? ;-7


Hehehehehe. :-b
:-D :-D
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