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Postby Madison » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:04 pm

Phatferd wrote:
thedude wrote:
Phatferd wrote:You just said it yourself. You need pitching. This trade did not get you a single arm. You lose production between Wilkerson and Soriano. Wilkerson may be a solid player (I agree), but he is not Soriano. You are still short at least 2 arms on that team.

You lost Kenny Rogers, so you are already in a hole. I see no reason why you would not even take a pitcher with Soriano. Mench or Nix won't land you a better pitcher than Soriano would. They will probably only land you a prospect too. Soriano would have gotten at least a teams top prospect or number 2-3, if not a number 1.



The Rangers have already gotten more calls for Wilkerson and Sledge than they ever did for Soriano. It will be easier to turn one or both into pitchers than to trade soriano for a good pitcher most GMs are smart (but apprently not Jim Bowden) they foresaw the potenial problem of trading for Soriano (the problem the Nats are having right now with him). By getting cheap good outfielders, the Rangers improve their chances of getting pitching.


If this is true, then I will take back everything I said. I don't think they have plans to trade Wilkerson. If they trade anyone it will be Sledge, but he will not get you an arm that will really help this team.

The only players on the big league roster they could swing for a top pitcher is Young, Tex, and Blalock (Soriano was the other) and none of these guys are going anywhere, except maybe Blalock. I don't see them trading Blalock now since they lost Soriano's bat. If they lose Blalock too (even though he wasn't as productive last year) their offense is not better than the Angel's and their pitching is probably battling Seattle as the worst staff in the AL West. It won't get it done.


It's what everyone has been trying to tell you in this thread.

No one would give up any reasonable pitching for a 1 year, $10 million dollar rental of Soriano.

By making this trade, the Rangers can (and will) move players for pitching. Blalock, Mench, Wilkerson, Adrain Gonzalez, Nix, Dellucci, Sledge, are all on the block, and will land better pitching than what Soriano would have, simply because no one wanted a one year, $10 million dollar rental of Soriano. That's not really news, it was all over the news, websites, and papers, that no one wanted to give up someone solid for a one year, $10 million dollar rental of Soriano. Any of the other guys are much cheaper and better deals than Soriano is. Believe me, if the Rangers could have landed any decent pitching for Soriano, they would have done the deal in a heartbeat. The only offer that was serious in the least was the Benson deal, but that would have been horrid for the Rangers, so they made the best deal they could to put themselves in position to deal for pitching (which I'm sure they will do now that they have the trading chips several teams are interested in).
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Postby Phatferd » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:30 pm

Madison wrote:
Phatferd wrote:
thedude wrote:
Phatferd wrote:You just said it yourself. You need pitching. This trade did not get you a single arm. You lose production between Wilkerson and Soriano. Wilkerson may be a solid player (I agree), but he is not Soriano. You are still short at least 2 arms on that team.

You lost Kenny Rogers, so you are already in a hole. I see no reason why you would not even take a pitcher with Soriano. Mench or Nix won't land you a better pitcher than Soriano would. They will probably only land you a prospect too. Soriano would have gotten at least a teams top prospect or number 2-3, if not a number 1.



The Rangers have already gotten more calls for Wilkerson and Sledge than they ever did for Soriano. It will be easier to turn one or both into pitchers than to trade soriano for a good pitcher most GMs are smart (but apprently not Jim Bowden) they foresaw the potenial problem of trading for Soriano (the problem the Nats are having right now with him). By getting cheap good outfielders, the Rangers improve their chances of getting pitching.


If this is true, then I will take back everything I said. I don't think they have plans to trade Wilkerson. If they trade anyone it will be Sledge, but he will not get you an arm that will really help this team.

The only players on the big league roster they could swing for a top pitcher is Young, Tex, and Blalock (Soriano was the other) and none of these guys are going anywhere, except maybe Blalock. I don't see them trading Blalock now since they lost Soriano's bat. If they lose Blalock too (even though he wasn't as productive last year) their offense is not better than the Angel's and their pitching is probably battling Seattle as the worst staff in the AL West. It won't get it done.


It's what everyone has been trying to tell you in this thread.

No one would give up any reasonable pitching for a 1 year, $10 million dollar rental of Soriano.

By making this trade, the Rangers can (and will) move players for pitching. Blalock, Mench, Wilkerson, Adrain Gonzalez, Nix, Dellucci, Sledge, are all on the block, and will land better pitching than what Soriano would have, simply because no one wanted a one year, $10 million dollar rental of Soriano. That's not really news, it was all over the news, websites, and papers, that no one wanted to give up someone solid for a one year, $10 million dollar rental of Soriano. Any of the other guys are much cheaper and better deals than Soriano is. Believe me, if the Rangers could have landed any decent pitching for Soriano, they would have done the deal in a heartbeat. The only offer that was serious in the least was the Benson deal, but that would have been horrid for the Rangers, so they made the best deal they could to put themselves in position to deal for pitching (which I'm sure they will do now that they have the trading chips several teams are interested in).


Teams do give up great pitching to rent a player for a playoff drive all the time.

Ponson to SF a couple years back?
Schmidt to SF?
Kazmir for VZAM?

Teams every single year that are in contention overspend to add a bat to their lineup. Every single year, more often than not they will take guys with half a year left, knowing they won't resign him. They do it to help their team that year, they don't look ahead.

Look at Nomar, the Cubs took him for half a year an then resigned him the next year to a 1 year deal. They took him on for 1/2 a year.
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Postby eftda » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:50 pm

Ponson to SF was a steal for SF. Kurt Ainsworth already has TJ surgery, and Moss was demoted to bullpen. Schmidt was a steal too, the Giants sent Armando Rios and Ryan Vogelsong for Schmidt and Vander Wall. All 4 players, Volgelsong, Rios, Ainsworth and Moss are all sub-par players who shouldn't be on a Fantasy Roster this season.
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Postby RocketsDWM » Sat Dec 10, 2005 6:50 pm

But, realistically, the Rangers would most likely get a pitching prospect in return at the deadline that may or not pan out. They would also have to wait for that pitcher to devevlop. Not sure if the Rangers are willing to wait that long as the AL West is wide open right now. I dont think you have seen the last of the Rangers moves to acquire pitching....stay tuned.
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Postby Madison » Sat Dec 10, 2005 11:56 pm

Phatferd wrote:Teams do give up great pitching to rent a player for a playoff drive all the time.

Ponson to SF a couple years back?
Schmidt to SF?
Kazmir for VZAM?

Teams every single year that are in contention overspend to add a bat to their lineup. Every single year, more often than not they will take guys with half a year left, knowing they won't resign him. They do it to help their team that year, they don't look ahead.

Look at Nomar, the Cubs took him for half a year an then resigned him the next year to a 1 year deal. They took him on for 1/2 a year.


How ironic. Ponson goes from garbage to a "great pitcher" in 3 pages. :-b :-b :-b

Anyway, why can't you wrap your brain around this situation and understand it?

A. The Rangers need starting pitching to compete THIS YEAR.

B. No one would trade reasonable pitching for Soriano.

C. Waiting until the trade deadline to move Soriano for "prospects" ;-7 would remove any chance the Rangers have this year.

D. So the Rangers trade Soriano for the pieces needed to land reasonable starting pitching for THIS YEAR, and also open up payroll to sign free agent pitching if they so choose (Save $10 million by trading Soriano).

E. The Rangers trade the excess OF's for starting pitching and/or sign some reasonable starting pitching.

This whole thing is really, really simple. ;-)
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Postby thedude » Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:52 am

Madison wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Teams do give up great pitching to rent a player for a playoff drive all the time.

Ponson to SF a couple years back?
Schmidt to SF?
Kazmir for VZAM?

Teams every single year that are in contention overspend to add a bat to their lineup. Every single year, more often than not they will take guys with half a year left, knowing they won't resign him. They do it to help their team that year, they don't look ahead.

Look at Nomar, the Cubs took him for half a year an then resigned him the next year to a 1 year deal. They took him on for 1/2 a year.


How ironic. Ponson goes from garbage to a "great pitcher" in 3 pages. :-b :-b :-b

Anyway, why can't you wrap your brain around this situation and understand it?

A. The Rangers need starting pitching to compete THIS YEAR.

B. No one would trade reasonable pitching for Soriano.

C. Waiting until the trade deadline to move Soriano for "prospects" ;-7 would remove any chance the Rangers have this year.

D. So the Rangers trade Soriano for the pieces needed to land reasonable starting pitching for THIS YEAR, and also open up payroll to sign free agent pitching if they so choose (Save $10 million by trading Soriano).

E. The Rangers trade the excess OF's for starting pitching and/or sign some reasonable starting pitching.

This whole thing is really, really simple. ;-)

Thankyou Madison. That is what i was trying to say. What they got was best for their team. It gives them the best chance to accquire pitching.
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Postby Havok1517 » Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:06 am

I'm bored and saw something that struck me. Anybody seen the Ranger's current pitching staff? Dreadful!!!! Their team management has been so bad the last couple of years it is ridiculious. Without a doubt, this is the worst starff in all of baseball, yes, even worse than Fla.

1. C. Young (the only bright spot, a dim one at that, no way he should be their #1 starter, should only be a #3 or #4 right now)
2. M. Riley (Could be effective, if healthy? But predominatly a fly ball pitcher)
3. R. Rodriguez (a RP starting)
4. J. Dominguez (a RP starting)
5. K. Loe (potential, but should be a spot starter or #5 guy at most)
LR B. Shouse (a lefty specialist pitcher only, 1 or 2 batters worth)
LR C. Wilson (MR, good GO/AO)
LR J. Leicester (smartest move all off season for them)
LR S. Feldman (Getting tire of typing crap)
MR. R. Dickey ("The Thing" should only be a 1 inning RP, change of pace gimmic pitcher, he only has 2 pitches and should never start!)
MR N. Regilio (Injured Crap!)
MR J. Wasdin (Old Crap)
SU E. Ramirez (Crap!)
SU J. Benoit (A fly ball pitcher @ Tex, his great arm needs to be in a larger park to make up for his mistakes)
SU F. Francisco (Throws chairs and heat, can be a good setup guy)
SU F. Castro (Needs to get stronger)
SU J. Zimmerman (Hopefully, will return at close form)
CL F. Cordero (Good, but they gotta get to him)
Min. J. Rupe (Interesting GO/AO ratio)
Min. E. Volquez (Potential)
Min. J. Silva (always has been crap)
Min. J. Durocher (not sure)

The whole staff, besides Young, Loe, Leicester, Francisco, Cordero, and besides the hurt Zim & Riley, suck where they are. Pitchers are starting when they have no business doing it and some shouldn't even be pitching in the majors. There is no leadership in the bullpen. They just need to gut pretty much the entire staff and start over. Mark Conner needs to be fired and probably so should Buck Showalter and hire someone like Don Gullett(PC) and Jim Fergosi.

They have plenty of sought after talent to trade such as, Benoit, Laird, Matthews, Gonzalez, Wilkerson, & Mench). If has been rumored that Tex is seeking Matt Morris's services, I think he'll be overpriced and won't have that much effect on the team. He'd be the best fit of the top free agent pitchers remaining but will evidently sign with SF.

10 pitchers the Rangers should target...
.............................
- K. Saarloos (Once regarded as a top Hou prospect. I think he proved he is a capable MLB starter (good GO/AO ratio) and Oak needs offense and is shopping him)

- M. Batista (Tor, lost his rotation spot and Tex is already targeting him, but they should really try their hardest to acquire him. He's won before and should provide some much needed leadership to their rotation)

- B. Hennessey (SF, ground ball pitcher that shows signs of becoming a good bottom of rotation guy)

- N. Robertson (Det, has lost some favor and has Verlander and Ledezma on his heals with so room for him in the future rotation. A dominating pitcher when on, great K totals with a good sinkerball)

- S. Ponson (FA, I like Tex taking a chance on a low buy/high reward player like this. Just load the contract with incentives and conduct clauses and it could be a great move)

- S. Burnett (Pit has a surplus of SP (not to mention LHPs) has a good GO/AO ratio and Pit needs OF help)

- J. Tavarez (FA, the Yanks and Cards want him a lot, but Tex should not lose out on him like they did with Farns, will probably go elsewhere though) Maybe, Looper instead.

- D. Graves (FA, succeeded in Cin until #^&% hit the fan, knows how to pitch in hitters park and could be had for relatively cheap)

- B. League (Tor closer of the future, could be combined with Batista in deal for Mench/Wikerson. He has electric stuff)

- A. Alfonseca (FA, Marlins interested in resigning him, but 6 finger would provide stability to bullpen)

I would also try and sign potential bargins like O. Dotel, J. Jimenez, & D. Dreifort to incentive laden contracts.
.........................
How to get 'em
Trade Wilkerson & Laird to Tor for Batista, League, & Hudson

Trade Gonzalez & Benoit to SF for Hennessey & Ellison/Valdez

Trade Matthews to Pit for Burnett

Trade prospects to Det for Robertson

Trade Mench to A's for Saarloos and some pitching prospects

Sign Ponson, Alfonseca, Taverez, & Graves

SP M. Batista
SP N. Robertson
SP C. Young
SP K. Saarloos
SP S. Ponson
P C. Loe/Burnett
P J. Leicester/M. Riley
P D. Graves
P B. League
RP F. Francisco
RP J. Tavarez/J. Zimmerman
RP F. Cordero

Send pitchers that shouldn't be in the majors home or back to the minors where they belong.

C R. Barajas
1B M. Teixera
2B O. Hudson
SS M. Young
3B H. Blaylock
LF T. Sledge
CF L. Nix
RF D. Dellucci
DH P. Nevin
-Maybe sign another OF (Encarnacion or Mondesi)

Wow, this is crazy. As you can see, the end result is a vastly improved team, I think.
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Postby Phatferd » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:18 pm

Madison wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Teams do give up great pitching to rent a player for a playoff drive all the time.

Ponson to SF a couple years back?
Schmidt to SF?
Kazmir for VZAM?

Teams every single year that are in contention overspend to add a bat to their lineup. Every single year, more often than not they will take guys with half a year left, knowing they won't resign him. They do it to help their team that year, they don't look ahead.

Look at Nomar, the Cubs took him for half a year an then resigned him the next year to a 1 year deal. They took him on for 1/2 a year.


How ironic. Ponson goes from garbage to a "great pitcher" in 3 pages. :-b :-b :-b

Anyway, why can't you wrap your brain around this situation and understand it?

A. The Rangers need starting pitching to compete THIS YEAR.

B. No one would trade reasonable pitching for Soriano.

C. Waiting until the trade deadline to move Soriano for "prospects" ;-7 would remove any chance the Rangers have this year.

D. So the Rangers trade Soriano for the pieces needed to land reasonable starting pitching for THIS YEAR, and also open up payroll to sign free agent pitching if they so choose (Save $10 million by trading Soriano).

E. The Rangers trade the excess OF's for starting pitching and/or sign some reasonable starting pitching.

This whole thing is really, really simple. ;-)


Whoever said Ponson was good? He's god awful.

You still fail to understand what I am saying. I am not saying the Rangers would get a pitching prospect. I am saying at the very least that's what they would get. My point is, even IF they don't get a number 2 pitcher for Soriano they could AT LEAST get a top prospect. If they ended up getting plan B, it's a hell of a lot better than what they got from the Nationals (for this team).

Your staff sucked majorly last year and that was with a guy like Kenny Rogers, who no longer is on the team. Hersheiser is no longer the pitching coach and that will hurt.

Now I am reading that they are close to moving Wilkerson for Batista and Hudson! If they do this then they are a lot dumber than I thought.

You would have basically traded Soriano (the best production of any 2Bman) for Batista (not good) and Hudson (good with the glove and thats about it).

So not only is your offense weaker, but your rotation is still not any better.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:52 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
slomo007 wrote:And this adds what to the discussion?

Aren't we talking about A-Rod/Soriano here?

Every team has its own list of mistakes, Texas is no different.


Are you really this dense or just trying to pick a fight?


Yeah it looks like you are the dense one GTWMA - you misunderstood his post.
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Postby slomo007 » Sun Dec 11, 2005 6:13 pm

Phatferd wrote:
Madison wrote:
Phatferd wrote:Teams do give up great pitching to rent a player for a playoff drive all the time.

Ponson to SF a couple years back?
Schmidt to SF?
Kazmir for VZAM?

Teams every single year that are in contention overspend to add a bat to their lineup. Every single year, more often than not they will take guys with half a year left, knowing they won't resign him. They do it to help their team that year, they don't look ahead.

Look at Nomar, the Cubs took him for half a year an then resigned him the next year to a 1 year deal. They took him on for 1/2 a year.


How ironic. Ponson goes from garbage to a "great pitcher" in 3 pages. :-b :-b :-b

Anyway, why can't you wrap your brain around this situation and understand it?

A. The Rangers need starting pitching to compete THIS YEAR.

B. No one would trade reasonable pitching for Soriano.

C. Waiting until the trade deadline to move Soriano for "prospects" ;-7 would remove any chance the Rangers have this year.

D. So the Rangers trade Soriano for the pieces needed to land reasonable starting pitching for THIS YEAR, and also open up payroll to sign free agent pitching if they so choose (Save $10 million by trading Soriano).

E. The Rangers trade the excess OF's for starting pitching and/or sign some reasonable starting pitching.

This whole thing is really, really simple. ;-)


Whoever said Ponson was good? He's god awful.

You still fail to understand what I am saying. I am not saying the Rangers would get a pitching prospect. I am saying at the very least that's what they would get. My point is, even IF they don't get a number 2 pitcher for Soriano they could AT LEAST get a top prospect. If they ended up getting plan B, it's a hell of a lot better than what they got from the Nationals (for this team).

Your staff sucked majorly last year and that was with a guy like Kenny Rogers, who no longer is on the team. Hersheiser is no longer the pitching coach and that will hurt.

Now I am reading that they are close to moving Wilkerson for Batista and Hudson! If they do this then they are a lot dumber than I thought.

You would have basically traded Soriano (the best production of any 2Bman) for Batista (not good) and Hudson (good with the glove and thats about it).

So not only is your offense weaker, but your rotation is still not any better.


I think the difference here is that phatferd clearly values Soriano WAY more than most of us here, at least in real life.

I think that's where the argument is at a draw, he thinks Soriano is worth a 1 or 2 starter in the Majors, while it's clear that given Soriano's attitude, contract, strikeouts, poor avg, poor just about everything except HRs - he is not worth a top pitcher in the Majors. Perhaps they could have gotten a top prospect, not along the lines of Felix Hernandez or anyone like that....but more along the lines of Greinke, E. Jackson, or someone that has already tried and failed in the Majors but still has some upside. However, I like the trade for Wilkerson better than a trade like that. It's clear that the Rangers have been shopping him for pitching for a good year now and the best offer they got was Benson? Wilkerson is about 10x better than Benson.

Just my thoughts.
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