Well it took long enough. - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to General Talk

Well it took long enough.

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby Webster11 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:09 pm

Madison wrote:
Webster11 wrote:(and i don't see how speaking spanish makes it any more likely than if two kids were talking in private in a hallway)


And yet again, that was never said, but that's what everyone has become stuck on.

Wrveres's sheep thoughts keep coming to mind each time a person jumps on this bandwagon about something that was never said........


While you never said that directly, you do imply that students speaking in a different language pose a greater threat than everyday occurences in high school such as two students talking in private. That is unless you also think students shouldn't be allowed to talk in private without a teacher present.

Madison wrote:I see it as two kids speaking in a language the teachers don't understand, which is a security risk, since teachers cannot be expected to speak and understand every language on the planet.


Either you think speaking in a different language is a greater threat than two students speaking in private, or you think that they are both equally as dangerous and should both either be allowed or dissalowed. Which is it?
Image
Webster11
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1110
Joined: 8 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Pedantic » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:20 pm

It's nice to say that Spanish-speaking people should know English, but we turn our backs when it comes to actually making it happen. Many Latinos, especially migrant workers, are very poor and can barely survive, let alone learn English. Are they just supposed to magically learn English? There is going to be some measure of bilingual teaching, no matter how you cut it, because people don't just wake up one day fluent in English, when they've only spoken Spanish all of their life.

Schools have to be equipped to teach people. Spanish-speaking people are no different. If they can't learn English at school, where can they learn it? If we just say too bad, if you can't speak English, you can't come to school, we're sweeping a growing percentage of our population under the proverbial rug. That will only work for a little while. The quality of life for everyone decreases in an uneducated community. We may want things to be a certain way, but there is a significant gap between that ideal and what is practical in real life.

The real danger lies not in children going to school who can't speak English, but children who become adults who can't speak English.

And of course it's ludicrous to punish children for speaking something other than English in a setting that wasn't in the course of anything to do with school. Would the school have done the same thing if they were speaking Pig Latin? What do they hope to accomplish by that anyway? It's not as if the boy speaking Spanish was inhibiting his learning. After all, he spoke fluent English. So what's the point?
Image
Pedantic
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicEagle EyeCafe Musketeer
Posts: 6725
Joined: 5 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Funny movie quote that everyone knows

Postby Madison » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:41 pm

Webster11 wrote:
Madison wrote:
Webster11 wrote:(and i don't see how speaking spanish makes it any more likely than if two kids were talking in private in a hallway)


And yet again, that was never said, but that's what everyone has become stuck on.

Wrveres's sheep thoughts keep coming to mind each time a person jumps on this bandwagon about something that was never said........


While you never said that directly, you do imply that students speaking in a different language pose a greater threat than everyday occurences in high school such as two students talking in private. That is unless you also think students shouldn't be allowed to talk in private without a teacher present.

Madison wrote:I see it as two kids speaking in a language the teachers don't understand, which is a security risk, since teachers cannot be expected to speak and understand every language on the planet.


Either you think speaking in a different language is a greater threat than two students speaking in private, or you think that they are both equally as dangerous and should both either be allowed or dissalowed. Which is it?


Imply? You must not read many of my posts. ;-) I don't beat around the bush, I say exactly what I mean, and things are worded the way I want them worded. If I thought they posed a significant security risk, I'd have said so.

Anyway, to continue with something that's being blown way out of proportion that was never said (and still ignoring the other issues like costs involved, common courtesy, etc) the difference is the difficulty level. Two kids can be sitting in class, standing in the hall, on the playground, etc, speaking Italian or whatever with smiles on their faces, and discuss anything they want.

Much harder for two kids to sneak away and discuss something they don't want anyone else to hear. Oh, and last time I checked, two students sneaking off together usually resulted in a trip to the principal's office.

I really did expect some interesting discussion about this whole thing, but with everyone stuck on something that wasn't said, it's grown quite boring. Ah well.

Pedantic wrote:It's nice to say that Spanish-speaking people should know English, but we turn our backs when it comes to actually making it happen.


Really? We've got all kinds of programs (free programs!) here in Fort Worth that teach both reading and speaking English. I probably get a paper every two weeks written in both English and Spanish with the details of when and where to go for the free classes that anyone is welcome to attend.

Pedantic wrote:Schools have to be equipped to teach people. Spanish-speaking people are no different. If they can't learn English at school, where can they learn it?


What Rugby is saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's how I feel too) is that we quit teaching in Spanish. You drop a kid into school that only speaks Spanish, where only English is spoken, and that kid will learn English quite quickly. There are Spanish classes in High School that only teach Spanish class in Spanish, and those kids learn Spanish quite quickly. Why can't it work with English?
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Postby Webster11 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 4:52 pm

Madison wrote:
Webster11 wrote:
Madison wrote:
Webster11 wrote:(and i don't see how speaking spanish makes it any more likely than if two kids were talking in private in a hallway)


And yet again, that was never said, but that's what everyone has become stuck on.

Wrveres's sheep thoughts keep coming to mind each time a person jumps on this bandwagon about something that was never said........


While you never said that directly, you do imply that students speaking in a different language pose a greater threat than everyday occurences in high school such as two students talking in private. That is unless you also think students shouldn't be allowed to talk in private without a teacher present.

Madison wrote:I see it as two kids speaking in a language the teachers don't understand, which is a security risk, since teachers cannot be expected to speak and understand every language on the planet.


Either you think speaking in a different language is a greater threat than two students speaking in private, or you think that they are both equally as dangerous and should both either be allowed or dissalowed. Which is it?


Imply? You must not read many of my posts. ;-) I don't beat around the bush, I say exactly what I mean, and things are worded the way I want them worded. If I thought they posed a significant security risk, I'd have said so.

Anyway, to continue with something that's being blown way out of proportion that was never said (and still ignoring the other issues like costs involved, common courtesy, etc) the difference is the difficulty level. Two kids can be sitting in class, standing in the hall, on the playground, etc, speaking Italian or whatever with smiles on their faces, and discuss anything they want.

Much harder for two kids to sneak away and discuss something they don't want anyone else to hear. Oh, and last time I checked, two students sneaking off together usually resulted in a trip to the principal's office.

I really did expect some interesting discussion about this whole thing, but with everyone stuck on something that wasn't said, it's grown quite boring. Ah well.

Pedantic wrote:It's nice to say that Spanish-speaking people should know English, but we turn our backs when it comes to actually making it happen.


Really? We've got all kinds of programs (free programs!) here in Fort Worth that teach both reading and speaking English. I probably get a paper every two weeks written in both English and Spanish with the details of when and where to go for the free classes that anyone is welcome to attend.

Pedantic wrote:Schools have to be equipped to teach people. Spanish-speaking people are no different. If they can't learn English at school, where can they learn it?


What Rugby is saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's how I feel too) is that we quit teaching in Spanish. You drop a kid into school that only speaks Spanish, where only English is spoken, and that kid will learn English quite quickly. There are Spanish classes in High School that only teach Spanish class in Spanish, and those kids learn Spanish quite quickly. Why can't it work with English?


I agree its being blown out of proportion, but saying speaking spanish in school is a security risk and then concluding the paragraph with "Columbine anyone?" is only asking for the issue to be blown way out of proportion.

You must havegone to a very different high school than the one I attend. And thats probably a large reason for our differing viewpoints. At my school students can talk in private anytime they want. as long as its not during class, and students can even leave campus when they dont have classes.
Image
Webster11
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1110
Joined: 8 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Half Massed » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:14 pm

Madison wrote:
Half Massed wrote:
Emma Lazarus wrote:Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free


But only if they're exactly like us though right? ;-7


Again I'll ask.......Why is it wrong to expect a little common decency and respect from those who we allow to come into the country? Learning the language spoken in this country isn't harming them in any way. A few people have mentioned the 1st Amendment. Ok fine, so people can come into the country, be given rights by us, but they don't have to abide by anything as simple as learning the language spoken? Interesting.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding the article, but I got the impression the kid did speak English and was just talking to a friend in Spanish. As for common decency, why does it matter what language they speak in when it's in private? It sure doesn't seem like common decency to me to listen in on someone's private conversation in the first place.

Madison wrote:
Half Massed wrote:Might as well get wary that they were passing notes or hanging out after school.


Well, passing notes was not allowed in any school I ever attended. Some teachers would even take the notes and read them out loud to the class. Others would read them and then either trash them, or send the kid to the office.

In high school, once the dismissal bell rang, we had 10 minutes to leave the property.

Guess I went to some very strange schools...........


True, note passing and such was not smiled upon, but I've never heard of a kid getting suspended for a passing a note unless it was something about content. It's the degree of punishment here that is an issue. If the kid was told not to speak Spanish, which I don't agree with in the first place, and he did anyways, a teacher scolding him or something along those lines would be more appropriate. It seems the severity of the punishment doesn't match the cause, and that the cause shouldn't be punishment-worthy in the first place. [/quote]
Image
Half Massed
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterEagle EyePick 3 Weekly WinnerSweet 16 Survivor
Posts: 4084
Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Busting ghosts

Postby Madison » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:16 pm

Webster11 wrote:I agree its being blown out of proportion, but saying speaking spanish in school is a security risk and then concluding the paragraph with "Columbine anyone?" is only asking for the issue to be blown way out of proportion.

You must havegone to a very different high school than the one I attend. And thats probably a large reason for our differing viewpoints. At my school students can talk in private anytime they want. as long as its not during class, and students can even leave campus when they dont have classes.


As I already explained about the "Columbine anyone?" comment:

Madison wrote:It was simply to show that some kids do plot to do stupid and dangerous things that put lives of other kids at risk. I fully expected someone to say something along the lines of "What can kids do?" or "Kids are not security risks.", so I reminded people that kids are completely unpredictable


There it is again.^^^ Without that comment, I guarantee people would have posted comments like the ones I stated above. Simply a reminder, nothing more.

As to the difference of schools we attended, I'm sure they were different. Our teachers stayed in the halls between classes, in the bathrooms, even watching outside (not to mention the security guards that were outside already). Metal detectors on the doors, "wands" for the security guards (brought in my senior year), etc. It was not the safest of places. We actually had one guy arrested when the drug dog found a grenade launcher in the trunk of his car. A GRENADE LAUNCHER! 8-o Does that give you a clue about the conditions at my high school? :-D

If there are schools out there where all kids speak English, have solid morals, were brought up the correct way, have no chance of going crazy, etc, then more power to them, and kudos ;-D . However, the majority of schools don't fall into that catagory, so other measures have to be taken to ensure the safety of the students and faculty. The way people are acting is as if someone suggested that all students be required to cut off their thumbs. We're simply talking about speaking the language spoken in the country in which they are living. Not really that big of a deal at all.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Postby RugbyD » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:20 pm

Madison wrote:What Rugby is saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's how I feel too) is that we quit teaching in Spanish. You drop a kid into school that only speaks Spanish, where only English is spoken, and that kid will learn English quite quickly. There are Spanish classes in High School that only teach Spanish class in Spanish, and those kids learn Spanish quite quickly. Why can't it work with English?

Pretty much. There still has to be a transition class that specifically teaches english to non-english speakers, but having parallel general curricula is where the problem arises.

I think a good application would be to start an immigrant one or two grades behind so that he's not missing much and is probably learning the english version of some stuff he already knows in spanish. so what if they graduate high school when they're 20 instead of 18. they will be much better educated and integrated than if they did otherwise.
TennCare rocks!!!!
RugbyD
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Ranker
Posts: 5591
Joined: 7 Dec 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: punting small dogs and being surly

Postby Madison » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:31 pm

Half Massed wrote:
Madison wrote:
Half Massed wrote:
Emma Lazarus wrote:Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free


But only if they're exactly like us though right? ;-7


Again I'll ask.......Why is it wrong to expect a little common decency and respect from those who we allow to come into the country? Learning the language spoken in this country isn't harming them in any way. A few people have mentioned the 1st Amendment. Ok fine, so people can come into the country, be given rights by us, but they don't have to abide by anything as simple as learning the language spoken? Interesting.


Maybe I'm misunderstanding the article, but I got the impression the kid did speak English and was just talking to a friend in Spanish. As for common decency, why does it matter what language they speak in when it's in private? It sure doesn't seem like common decency to me to listen in on someone's private conversation in the first place.


I addressed the kid in my 2nd post on the first page. I was simply responding to the quote you used, and your comment about it. It was about the bigger picture, not about one kid who refused to follow the school rules repeatedly.

Half Massed wrote:
Madison wrote:
Half Massed wrote:Might as well get wary that they were passing notes or hanging out after school.


Well, passing notes was not allowed in any school I ever attended. Some teachers would even take the notes and read them out loud to the class. Others would read them and then either trash them, or send the kid to the office.

In high school, once the dismissal bell rang, we had 10 minutes to leave the property.

Guess I went to some very strange schools...........


True, note passing and such was not smiled upon, but I've never heard of a kid getting suspended for a passing a note unless it was something about content. It's the degree of punishment here that is an issue. If the kid was told not to speak Spanish, which I don't agree with in the first place, and he did anyways, a teacher scolding him or something along those lines would be more appropriate. It seems the severity of the punishment doesn't match the cause, and that the cause shouldn't be punishment-worthy in the first place.


How many times do you have to tell a kid not to do something before you finally punish them hard enough to get the point across? The article said that he had been told repeatedly not to speak Spanish, yet he continued to do so. Eventually you have to drop the hammer down. It's not about what he was doing, it's about teaching a kid to follow the rules. If the rule he continued to break was an acceptable rule, is a matter of opinion, and fairly irrelevant to the conversation. The kid got into trouble for doing exactly what he was told not to do, several times. Kids have to learn that there are rules in life that have to be followed. Doesn't matter if we agree with them or not, there are punishments if those rules are broken.

Pot is a great example. Pot is illegal. Some think that's a violation of civil rights, and continue to break the law by having or smoking pot. However, they also know they are breaking the law and will be punished if caught. Just because someone disagrees with the rules or laws of life because they think the rules or laws are silly or unfounded, that doesn't make them exempt from having to follow those rules or laws. Kids need to learn that simple fact, and unfortunately, punishments sometimes have to be severe in order to get that point across to the thick-headed ones.
Yes doctor, I am sick.
Sick of those who are spineless.
Sick of those who feel self-entitled.
Sick of those who are hypocrites.
Yes doctor, an army is forming.
Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
Madison
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
ExecutiveEditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerPick 3 ChampionMatchup Meltdown SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 53856
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Postby Phatferd » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:35 pm

I wish I was forced to take Spanish as early as possible, like 1st grade.

Now that I am in College and forced to take it to get my degree, it is so frickin' hard. It is the single most difficult class I have ever taken and I still need to take Spanish 102 after this one!
Phatferd
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 4058
Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Highway 10

Postby Webster11 » Sat Dec 10, 2005 5:36 pm

Madison wrote:
Webster11 wrote:I agree its being blown out of proportion, but saying speaking spanish in school is a security risk and then concluding the paragraph with "Columbine anyone?" is only asking for the issue to be blown way out of proportion.

You must havegone to a very different high school than the one I attend. And thats probably a large reason for our differing viewpoints. At my school students can talk in private anytime they want. as long as its not during class, and students can even leave campus when they dont have classes.


As I already explained about the "Columbine anyone?" comment:

Madison wrote:It was simply to show that some kids do plot to do stupid and dangerous things that put lives of other kids at risk. I fully expected someone to say something along the lines of "What can kids do?" or "Kids are not security risks.", so I reminded people that kids are completely unpredictable


There it is again.^^^ Without that comment, I guarantee people would have posted comments like the ones I stated above. Simply a reminder, nothing more.

As to the difference of schools we attended, I'm sure they were different. Our teachers stayed in the halls between classes, in the bathrooms, even watching outside (not to mention the security guards that were outside already). Metal detectors on the doors, "wands" for the security guards (brought in my senior year), etc. It was not the safest of places. We actually had one guy arrested when the drug dog found a grenade launcher in the trunk of his car. A GRENADE LAUNCHER! 8-o Does that give you a clue about the conditions at my high school? :-D

If there are schools out there where all kids speak English, have solid morals, were brought up the correct way, have no chance of going crazy, etc, then more power to them, and kudos ;-D . However, the majority of schools don't fall into that catagory, so other measures have to be taken to ensure the safety of the students and faculty. The way people are acting is as if someone suggested that all students be required to cut off their thumbs. We're simply talking about speaking the language spoken in the country in which they are living. Not really that big of a deal at all.


Yup I can definetely see why security was an issue at your school. Hopefully you can see why it might seem strange if not ridiculous to me that two kids speaking spanish would be considered a security threat
Image
Webster11
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 1110
Joined: 8 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to General Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: assiquate and 11 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Wednesday, Oct. 1
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

San Francisco at Pittsburgh
(8:07 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact