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Nomah to Toronto?

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Postby mrider » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:24 pm

quietstorm wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
quietstorm wrote:The Jays are just the poster children this year.

Also note, I haven't started threads, I've just picked up on what's already been said, even if it's with slight changes. I don't have something against the Jays in particular -- I don't dislike any team except the Yankees. I just think their moves are this year's Wright and Pavano signings.

I just read an interesting article by Jayson Stark, outlining the benefits and justifications of these deals. BTW, he gives them the #1 "Winners" spot for the Winter Meetings:

Here is the excerpt about the Jays:
Winners
1. Blue Jays
Additions: A.J. Burnett, Lyle Overbay, B.J. Ryan (before the meetings)
A round of applause, ladies and gentlemen, for Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi. He was the only GM in baseball to make it into the press-conference room three days in a row. "That's a pretty good streak. I'm like the Cal Ripken of the winter meetings," he joked after appearance No. 3.
But all the people firing epithets at Ricciardi and his team for showering $102 million on the captains of the All-Initials pitching staff (A.J. and B.J.) are missing something:

Ricciardi charged into the offseason knowing exactly what he wanted to do, targeted a specific group of players to help him do it and worked relentlessly (though expensively) to make things happen. That's an underrated quality in a profession where so many of his peers have trouble making anything happen.

"The thing I liked," said one NL executive, "is the fact that they had a game plan and they filled their holes with the pieces they wanted. You can say they only did it because they had money to burn. But the bottom line is, they accomplished what they set out to do. And now they're a factor in that division.They're a piece or two away from coming into town and being a threat to beat you every night. But they're a factor those other two teams [i.e., Boston and New York] have to worry about -- definitely."

And this team isn't done. The Blue Jays have two more bats on the grocery list, with Brad Wilkerson, Kevin Mench, Nomar Garciaparra, Mike Piazza and Milton Bradley all sitting there on their buffet line. So if Roy Halladay and Burnett can just pitch 400 innings next year, watch out.

It wasn't like these were spur of the moment type signings, they had been looking at those 2 for quite some time before attempting to sign them.
I'm not missing that he had a plan and stuck to it. I commend him for that much. I just think his plan was bogus. :-b


Whats the point of arguing none of you guys are going to change your opinion I love the Jays are those signings were good because now a good free agent always thinks as toronto as possible destination because they spend money. But before the season you can't say a plan is bogus so both of you guys need wait till the season to say whether is was smart or smart.
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Postby quietstorm » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:29 pm

No, I firmly maintain that how something works out doesn't affect the intelligence of it. Otherwise, you can say that the Carlos Beltran signing was a bad one.
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Postby mrider » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:35 pm

Well after one year you can't if he rebounds and has huge years for the rest of his years on the contract you would say its a bad signing? Yeh I didn't think so.
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Postby quietstorm » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:55 pm

I would never say it was a bad signing. It was a good signing at the time, even if it doesn't work out. Sometimes, all the projections in the world can be wrong. But if you sign somebody with good reason to believe they'll be worht it, it's a good signing. If you don't have good reason to believe it -- Yankees/Pavano/Wright -- it's a bad signing, no matter how it works out.

It's like basketball. I'm certain most of us played when we were little. What happens when you take a stupid shot? Is it somehow a smart shot if you get lucky and it goes in? No, the coach is still going to tell you not to take those shots, your teammates are still going to call it stupid -- because it was. It doesn't matter how it works out, it's how it looks at the time that allows us to call it intelligence or unintelligent. A three-point lobbed up with somebody in your face, when there are five minutes left and you're down by five -- that's stupid. A wide-open long two when you're down by two with a minute left? That's smart, even if you miss it.

So, as I said... I don't give a damn how they work out, it's all about how it looks from the date of signing.
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Postby Thursday » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:55 pm

Wow. Little warm in here.

Look, it's always a great lift for fans of a franchise to see that their team isn't afraid to spend. For Toronto, i like all the action this off-season, it shows the fans that they're serious about it. It takes more than one off-season, for sure, but it's good that they've made these steps.
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Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:59 pm

quietstorm wrote:I would never say it was a bad signing. It was a good signing at the time, even if it doesn't work out. Sometimes, all the projections in the world can be wrong. But if you sign somebody with good reason to believe they'll be worht it, it's a good signing. If you don't have good reason to believe it -- Yankees/Pavano/Wright -- it's a bad signing, no matter how it works out.

It's like basketball. I'm certain most of us played when we were little. What happens when you take a stupid shot? Is it somehow a smart shot if you get lucky and it goes in? No, the coach is still going to tell you not to take those shots, your teammates are still going to call it stupid -- because it was. It doesn't matter how it works out, it's how it looks at the time that allows us to call it intelligence or unintelligent. A three-point lobbed up with somebody in your face, when there are five minutes left and you're down by five -- that's stupid. A wide-open long two when you're down by two with a minute left? That's smart, even if you miss it.

So, as I said... I don't give a damn how they work out, it's all about how it looks from the date of signing.

So the Beltran signing was good at the time, and these aren't?

Why exactly is that? :-?
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Postby RAmst23 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:18 pm

quietstorm wrote:I would never say it was a bad signing. It was a good signing at the time, even if it doesn't work out. Sometimes, all the projections in the world can be wrong. But if you sign somebody with good reason to believe they'll be worht it, it's a good signing. If you don't have good reason to believe it -- Yankees/Pavano/Wright -- it's a bad signing, no matter how it works out.

It's like basketball. I'm certain most of us played when we were little. What happens when you take a stupid shot? Is it somehow a smart shot if you get lucky and it goes in? No, the coach is still going to tell you not to take those shots, your teammates are still going to call it stupid -- because it was. It doesn't matter how it works out, it's how it looks at the time that allows us to call it intelligence or unintelligent. A three-point lobbed up with somebody in your face, when there are five minutes left and you're down by five -- that's stupid. A wide-open long two when you're down by two with a minute left? That's smart, even if you miss it.

So, as I said... I don't give a damn how they work out, it's all about how it looks from the date of signing.


And I'd say, who cares how smart it looks if the Jays win it all 2 out of the next 5 years?

Anyway, this argument is getting dumb really fast on this site. This keeps popping up in multiple threads, and all that's coming out is that in storm's opinion it was bad, and the Jays' fans opinions it was good. That's all we're gonna keep hearing, because what the hell evidence are you gonna produce to the contrary? Burnett is a high risk/high reward signing. Wow, first time that's ever happened in sports.

Come off it guys, I know it's a forum and you can post whatever you want, but start your own thread to discuss this. I'm just asking, because it gets tiring to see multiple threads turn into this bickering that goes no where after post 2.
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Postby kimchi_chigae » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:40 pm

wrveres wrote:Even funnier is everybody that thinks Nomah' will hold up playing on astroturf everyday. :-b


true, but the astroturf at the rogers center is not as bad as it used to be. i've never been on the field, but it looks a lot more like grass than that ugly and hard astroturf they used to have.

and nomar would prolly DH a lot if he goes back to the AL.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:45 pm

I don't think that Nomar is a very good fit for Toronto.

If he comes here I hope that they first make room for him. I don't want to see us in a situation where we are forced to trade an IF and all of our potential trading partners know about the bind that we are in.
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Postby Morrison8312 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:21 pm

kimchi_chigae wrote:
wrveres wrote:Even funnier is everybody that thinks Nomah' will hold up playing on astroturf everyday. :-b


true, but the astroturf at the rogers center is not as bad as it used to be. i've never been on the field, but it looks a lot more like grass than that ugly and hard astroturf they used to have.

and nomar would prolly DH a lot if he goes back to the AL.


Yeah it's pretty much like grass. Most high schools and college's have it now. Its good stuff ;-D
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