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Postby bigken117 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:32 am

mweir145 wrote:
bigken117 wrote:
mweir145 wrote:bigken, it is in my opinion that Toronto has to spend like Boston and the Yankees in order to compete with them, and that is what they appear to finally be doing (although they are still far, far behind each of them).

Halladay makes something like 12.5 million, I believe next year.

It jumps up about 2 million from last year, I think.


I would have agreed with that 2 or 3 years ago, but considering how the Yankees wild spending hasn't gotten them anything in 5 years, and the Sox had a disappointing season defending while (I believe) adding payroll, has every team, them included, rethinking how they throw money around. Watching teams like Minny, Oakland and Cleveland is going to be the model. Not that they won't outspend everyone, they will, but I don't think other teams will have to throw an exorbanant amount of money at a guy to keep the Sox and Yanks at bay.
Anyways, it sort of seems like desperation on the part of JP following a season which fell well below expectations. I think the Jays woul have been better served saving some of that cache cash for next winter as well, and throwing $2 mil more per at Zito.

You would agree that the Jays have gotten better by virtue of these FA signings right? If the Jays just sat back and did nothing this off-season, there is virtually no chance that they would catch up to the Yankees and Red Sox this year. That is the ultimate goal (contending in the AL East), and it starts this year with these signings.

I'm also not exactly sure what you mean when you say the Jays fell far short of expectations last year. They finished 13 games better than they did the year before, and were in the Wild-Card race for over half the season, and even into the end of August without their ace, and the arguably the best pitcher in the AL, Roy Halladay. This wasn't anything close to a desperation move by J.P. They had targeted Burnett since the beginning of last season, and there were rumours that he almost decided to trade for him at the trade deadline last season. I'm also not sure why this is seen as an obscene amount of money. Has anybody seen what the other pitchers are signing for lately? What the Jays signed Burnett at was clearly market value, and is in my opinion, a great deal for them.

As for Zito, well I'm really not sure why everybody thinks he's so good, he shouldn't be worth anymore than A.J is, he's had two straight subpar seasons in a row. If the Jays waited for Zito, they would also be virtually giving up this season (not quite, but their chances of contending would decrease), and this is supposedly one of their "contention" years.

The Jays really had no other choice but to spend this available money if they wanted to contend. Though they still are not anywhere close to what the Red Sox and Yankees are in payroll, they are as close as they've been in a long time.


I thought I heard that this season was considered a disappointment compared to the expectations they had :-? Forgive if it wasn't, but I recall watching Sox games and ESPN mentioning it. Not disappointing the Philly Eagles this season expected to repeat in the NFC, but higher hopes, hanging around longer, 85+ wins etc. I'll grant the loss of Doc hurts, but every team has to deal with injuries. Heck, Schil stunk so bad when he played I thought he'd be better off not trying to be a hero.

From a Sox perspective, I like the Ryan signing, or should I say I don't like it? I wasn't exactly scared of Batista. But Burnett's ~11 mil next season will make him (using 05 figures and factoring in raises) the 13th highest paid pitcher in baseball. I'm quite sure that he isn't even arguably the 13th best pitcher. And consider some of the guys ahead of him include Park, Hampton, and Dreifort. I think because he was the best of a thin market, JP felt the need to make the biggest splash with all the money they had laying around. I like Burnett from a fantasy standpoint, but I wouldn't want the Sox throwing $11 mil at him.

It's only my .02 cents. You guys should be a much better team this season, but unless Halladay is on the mound, it won't be one I'm worried about catching up.

On another note, I know there's a thread somewhere, but I really like the Overbay trade for you guys. I think he'll be a good fit.
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Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:04 am

bigken117 wrote:I thought I heard that this season was considered a disappointment compared to the expectations they had :-? Forgive if it wasn't, but I recall watching Sox games and ESPN mentioning it. Not disappointing the Philly Eagles this season expected to repeat in the NFC, but higher hopes, hanging around longer, 85+ wins etc. I'll grant the loss of Doc hurts, but every team has to deal with injuries. Heck, Schil stunk so bad when he played I thought he'd be better off not trying to be a hero.

I certainly didn't have any expectations after that 67 win season, and I doubt many Jays fans did either, considering Halladay was just coming off of an injury and many weren't sure what to expect from him, so I'm not exactly sure where those reports from ESPN came from. I mean sure I had higher hopes once they established themselves in the wildcard race mid-season, but I never realistically believed they had a real shot at it without Halladay. Every team has to do with injuries, but not every team has to deal with an injury to their difference maker for 2 straight years.

bigken117 wrote:From a Sox perspective, I like the Ryan signing, or should I say I don't like it? I wasn't exactly scared of Batista. But Burnett's ~11 mil next season will make him (using 05 figures and factoring in raises) the 13th highest paid pitcher in baseball. I'm quite sure that he isn't even arguably the 13th best pitcher. And consider some of the guys ahead of him include Park, Hampton, and Dreifort. I think because he was the best of a thin market, JP felt the need to make the biggest splash with all the money they had laying around. I like Burnett from a fantasy standpoint, but I wouldn't want the Sox throwing $11 mil at him. It's only my .02 cents. You guys should be a much better team this season, but unless Halladay is on the mound, it won't be one I'm worried about catching up.

Last year, the Red Sox offered up more money for Clement than the Jays could afford. Because of that, the Jays had this money available for a #2 pitcher, and they were able to land the best pitcher on the market. I believe Burnett easily has the potential to be a top 15 pitcher in this league, and with Arnsberg's help, that could become a real possibility. 11 million per season really isn't that much when you consider that is the market value for starting pitchers right now. I mean just look at what Millwood could get, and what others like Rogers and Byrd have gotten already.
With Halladay pitching, one thing is certain, the Jays finally have a real chance at overtaking these teams.

bigken117 wrote:On another note, I know there's a thread somewhere, but I really like the Overbay trade for you guys. I think he'll be a good fit.

I agree, while the Jays gave up the better side of the deal in my opinion, they got the more immediate impact out of it, and I think Overbay could be a great help for the offense next year.
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Postby quietstorm » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:15 am

giants8307 wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
quietstorm wrote:Doesn't surprise me. Yet another dumb deal for the Jays. They overpaid Ryan, they overpaid Burnett, and Nomar will be overpaid by whomever he signs with.

I'm really not understanding this, why were those "dumb" deals? Atleast give some kind of reason as to why that is..


First of all, they improved themselves greatly in both the rotation and the bullpen. They also got the #1 FA starter, and the #2 FA closer. In addition, they got them for market value (you do understand what that is right?). I'm not exactly sure what the problem is...

It's not like the Jays really had a choice either. They either stay with the 50 million dollar payroll, and lose consistantly like they have the past 12 years, or they go for it, and sign the best players available. What's the better option? What makes them the better team? It should be fairly obvious to anybody.

As for Nomar, well if this is true (and it doesn't appear to be anywhere close to done yet), he will greatly help this team if he stays healthy. I mean this is a player who was MVP-caliber only a few years ago. I'd certainly take the low risk-high reward deal (which looks to be about a 2 year deal for 8-12 million). If he comes to Toronto, he will greatly help this team win, and also put more fans in the seats.


My thoughts exactly. They want to be good THIS year. Waiting for good deals on free agents next year or the year after won't help them. I admire them for trying field a competitive team in the al east.
I'll repeat this once more: Teams. Do. Not. Make. Money. Without. Playoff. Appearances.

Unless they feel that this guarantees them a postseason appearance, it's a bad move because of the amount of money involved.
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Postby BabyBulls » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:20 am

[quote="bigken117"][quote="mweir145"][quote="bigken117"][quote="mweir145"]

From a Sox perspective, I like the Ryan signing, or should I say I don't like it? I wasn't exactly scared of Batista. But Burnett's ~11 mil next season will make him (using 05 figures and factoring in raises) the 13th highest paid pitcher in baseball. I'm quite sure that he isn't even arguably the 13th best pitcher. And consider some of the guys ahead of him include Park, Hampton, and Dreifort. I think because he was the best of a thin market, JP felt the need to make the biggest splash with all the money they had laying around. I like Burnett from a fantasy standpoint, but I wouldn't want the Sox throwing $11 mil at him.

quote]

Didnt the sox just trade for Beckette, dont forget you took on Lowells huge salrie also, you might as well combine both there salries together since lowell isnt worth anything... When was Beckette last full healthy season? I cant even remenber :-?
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Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:20 am

quietstorm wrote:
giants8307 wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
quietstorm wrote:Doesn't surprise me. Yet another dumb deal for the Jays. They overpaid Ryan, they overpaid Burnett, and Nomar will be overpaid by whomever he signs with.

I'm really not understanding this, why were those "dumb" deals? Atleast give some kind of reason as to why that is..


First of all, they improved themselves greatly in both the rotation and the bullpen. They also got the #1 FA starter, and the #2 FA closer. In addition, they got them for market value (you do understand what that is right?). I'm not exactly sure what the problem is...

It's not like the Jays really had a choice either. They either stay with the 50 million dollar payroll, and lose consistantly like they have the past 12 years, or they go for it, and sign the best players available. What's the better option? What makes them the better team? It should be fairly obvious to anybody.

As for Nomar, well if this is true (and it doesn't appear to be anywhere close to done yet), he will greatly help this team if he stays healthy. I mean this is a player who was MVP-caliber only a few years ago. I'd certainly take the low risk-high reward deal (which looks to be about a 2 year deal for 8-12 million). If he comes to Toronto, he will greatly help this team win, and also put more fans in the seats.


My thoughts exactly. They want to be good THIS year. Waiting for good deals on free agents next year or the year after won't help them. I admire them for trying field a competitive team in the al east.
I'll repeat this once more: Teams. Do. Not. Make. Money. Without. Playoff. Appearances.

Unless they feel that this guarantees them a postseason appearance, it's a bad move because of the amount of money involved.

Are you serious? 8-o

No team can gurantee a postseason appearance, the best you can do is try, and that is what the Jays are finally trying to do.

What's your problem with the Jays anyway? There are about 13 other teams in this league that spend more money than the Jays on their team. Is there something flawed about all of those organizations?
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Postby quietstorm » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:09 am

The Jays are just the poster children this year.

Also note, I haven't started threads, I've just picked up on what's already been said, even if it's with slight changes. I don't have something against the Jays in particular -- I don't dislike any team except the Yankees. I just think their moves are this year's Wright and Pavano signings.
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Postby mweir145 » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:26 am

quietstorm wrote:The Jays are just the poster children this year.

Also note, I haven't started threads, I've just picked up on what's already been said, even if it's with slight changes. I don't have something against the Jays in particular -- I don't dislike any team except the Yankees. I just think their moves are this year's Wright and Pavano signings.

I just read an interesting article by Jayson Stark, outlining the benefits and justifications of these deals. BTW, he gives them the #1 "Winners" spot for the Winter Meetings:

Here is the excerpt about the Jays:
Winners
1. Blue Jays
Additions: A.J. Burnett, Lyle Overbay, B.J. Ryan (before the meetings)
A round of applause, ladies and gentlemen, for Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi. He was the only GM in baseball to make it into the press-conference room three days in a row. "That's a pretty good streak. I'm like the Cal Ripken of the winter meetings," he joked after appearance No. 3.
But all the people firing epithets at Ricciardi and his team for showering $102 million on the captains of the All-Initials pitching staff (A.J. and B.J.) are missing something:

Ricciardi charged into the offseason knowing exactly what he wanted to do, targeted a specific group of players to help him do it and worked relentlessly (though expensively) to make things happen. That's an underrated quality in a profession where so many of his peers have trouble making anything happen.

"The thing I liked," said one NL executive, "is the fact that they had a game plan and they filled their holes with the pieces they wanted. You can say they only did it because they had money to burn. But the bottom line is, they accomplished what they set out to do. And now they're a factor in that division.They're a piece or two away from coming into town and being a threat to beat you every night. But they're a factor those other two teams [i.e., Boston and New York] have to worry about -- definitely."

And this team isn't done. The Blue Jays have two more bats on the grocery list, with Brad Wilkerson, Kevin Mench, Nomar Garciaparra, Mike Piazza and Milton Bradley all sitting there on their buffet line. So if Roy Halladay and Burnett can just pitch 400 innings next year, watch out.

It wasn't like these were spur of the moment type signings, they had been looking at those 2 for quite some time before attempting to sign them.
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Postby wrveres » Fri Dec 09, 2005 4:18 am

kimchi_chigae wrote:now...nomah to toronto...where's wr...oh here he is...

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:-b

Even funnier is everybody that thinks Nomah' will hold up playing on astroturf everyday. :-b
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Postby pa_tater » Fri Dec 09, 2005 6:34 am

in one year:



B.J. Ryan = Rob Dibble :^
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Postby quietstorm » Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:01 pm

mweir145 wrote:
quietstorm wrote:The Jays are just the poster children this year.

Also note, I haven't started threads, I've just picked up on what's already been said, even if it's with slight changes. I don't have something against the Jays in particular -- I don't dislike any team except the Yankees. I just think their moves are this year's Wright and Pavano signings.

I just read an interesting article by Jayson Stark, outlining the benefits and justifications of these deals. BTW, he gives them the #1 "Winners" spot for the Winter Meetings:

Here is the excerpt about the Jays:
Winners
1. Blue Jays
Additions: A.J. Burnett, Lyle Overbay, B.J. Ryan (before the meetings)
A round of applause, ladies and gentlemen, for Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi. He was the only GM in baseball to make it into the press-conference room three days in a row. "That's a pretty good streak. I'm like the Cal Ripken of the winter meetings," he joked after appearance No. 3.
But all the people firing epithets at Ricciardi and his team for showering $102 million on the captains of the All-Initials pitching staff (A.J. and B.J.) are missing something:

Ricciardi charged into the offseason knowing exactly what he wanted to do, targeted a specific group of players to help him do it and worked relentlessly (though expensively) to make things happen. That's an underrated quality in a profession where so many of his peers have trouble making anything happen.

"The thing I liked," said one NL executive, "is the fact that they had a game plan and they filled their holes with the pieces they wanted. You can say they only did it because they had money to burn. But the bottom line is, they accomplished what they set out to do. And now they're a factor in that division.They're a piece or two away from coming into town and being a threat to beat you every night. But they're a factor those other two teams [i.e., Boston and New York] have to worry about -- definitely."

And this team isn't done. The Blue Jays have two more bats on the grocery list, with Brad Wilkerson, Kevin Mench, Nomar Garciaparra, Mike Piazza and Milton Bradley all sitting there on their buffet line. So if Roy Halladay and Burnett can just pitch 400 innings next year, watch out.

It wasn't like these were spur of the moment type signings, they had been looking at those 2 for quite some time before attempting to sign them.
I'm not missing that he had a plan and stuck to it. I commend him for that much. I just think his plan was bogus. :-b
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