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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:31 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:That was his choice. The market changes but it is ultimately up to the player to sign a contract to which they agree. There really is no comparison to a normal workplace as normal employees usually don't sign contracts.


Nonsense. Many, many types of employees sign all sorts of labor contracts. Freaking union-management contracts get renegotiated constantly. It's exactly what happens ALL THE TIME in unionized workplaces...like baseball.

And, my point is not simply labor contracts, but that all sorts of contracts--sales contracts, supply contracts, service contracts--get renegotiated ALL THE TIME. It's not in any way unusual. It's a normal fact of business and no one I know of who has ever had any experience in the real world gets through much of life without renegotiating several contracts.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=5015&t=strategy


Hello?? McFly?? You really need to come back to reality. Contracts aren't the norm. I will even give you that to humor you.......If they are, then don't sign it. That simple.
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Nov 23, 2005 4:38 am

Lofunzo wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:That was his choice. The market changes but it is ultimately up to the player to sign a contract to which they agree. There really is no comparison to a normal workplace as normal employees usually don't sign contracts.


Nonsense. Many, many types of employees sign all sorts of labor contracts. Freaking union-management contracts get renegotiated constantly. It's exactly what happens ALL THE TIME in unionized workplaces...like baseball.

And, my point is not simply labor contracts, but that all sorts of contracts--sales contracts, supply contracts, service contracts--get renegotiated ALL THE TIME. It's not in any way unusual. It's a normal fact of business and no one I know of who has ever had any experience in the real world gets through much of life without renegotiating several contracts.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=5015&t=strategy


Hello?? McFly?? You really need to come back to reality. Contracts aren't the norm. I will even give you that to humor you.......If they are, then don't sign it. That simple.


GTWMA has more water to his claim than you're giving him credit for. With unionized work, there certainly are contracts that dictate what flies and what doesn't. While employees don't generally sign them individually the way a ballplayer does, that doesn't mean they don't exist. The contracts spoken of outside of the baseball world act more like, say, the CBA does in baseball. It's the guidelines, etc. that encompass the entire unionized force (e.g. teachers). So, in those instances, yes, they are completely the norm, and in fact, provide the workers with MUCH more leverage and compensation than workers not in the union.
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:13 am

bigh0rt wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:That was his choice. The market changes but it is ultimately up to the player to sign a contract to which they agree. There really is no comparison to a normal workplace as normal employees usually don't sign contracts.


Nonsense. Many, many types of employees sign all sorts of labor contracts. Freaking union-management contracts get renegotiated constantly. It's exactly what happens ALL THE TIME in unionized workplaces...like baseball.

And, my point is not simply labor contracts, but that all sorts of contracts--sales contracts, supply contracts, service contracts--get renegotiated ALL THE TIME. It's not in any way unusual. It's a normal fact of business and no one I know of who has ever had any experience in the real world gets through much of life without renegotiating several contracts.

http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item.jhtml?id=5015&t=strategy


Hello?? McFly?? You really need to come back to reality. Contracts aren't the norm. I will even give you that to humor you.......If they are, then don't sign it. That simple.


GTWMA has more water to his claim than you're giving him credit for. With unionized work, there certainly are contracts that dictate what flies and what doesn't. While employees don't generally sign them individually the way a ballplayer does, that doesn't mean they don't exist. The contracts spoken of outside of the baseball world act more like, say, the CBA does in baseball. It's the guidelines, etc. that encompass the entire unionized force (e.g. teachers). So, in those instances, yes, they are completely the norm, and in fact, provide the workers with MUCH more leverage and compensation than workers not in the union.


I agree that I was overdramatizing it to make a point but I stand by my premise. If they think that there is any chance that they will want to renegotiate the contract, either don't sign it or sign for less years. Leverage or no leverage, these people are constantly fighting for their "rights" until it doesn't benefit them. They need to take the whole package. Ultimately, they signed it so they should honor it.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:18 pm

Lofunzo wrote:I agree that I was overdramatizing it to make a point but I stand by my premise. If they think that there is any chance that they will want to renegotiate the contract, either don't sign it or sign for less years. Leverage or no leverage, these people are constantly fighting for their "rights" until it doesn't benefit them. They need to take the whole package. Ultimately, they signed it so they should honor it.


I imagine a lot of employees in the airline and auto industry wish that their management was guided by your hard line law of contracts. Those managers entered into contracts with unions that simply became unsustainable as the reality of pension and retiree health care costs hit home. Of course, if they were held to those contracts, we'd have no American airlines or auto manufacturers.

Your position would simply cripple an economy, because no one would enter into any significant long-term deals under that rule. Renegotiation is a normal fact of contract life and any one who doesn't understand that is horribly divorced from reality. Unless all of us suddenly ingest a boatload of melange from Arrakis, the fact is we'll never know for sure what will happen in the future and no contract can specify all possible contingencies, so renegotiation is a normal economic contractual mechanism for parties to a contract to mutually adjust it to changed circumstances. Rather than get all emotional about a player or an owner who seeks renegotiation, we ought to see it as a normal fact of life.
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:26 pm

Just so we are clear, we are talking about different ends of the spectrum. Do you not have a problem with TO signing a 7 year, $49 million contract and wanting to renegotiate it 1 year later?? I know that I do. Nothing has changed that much.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:58 pm

Lofunzo wrote:Just so we are clear, we are talking about different ends of the spectrum. Do you not have a problem with TO signing a 7 year, $49 million contract and wanting to renegotiate it 1 year later?? I know that I do. Nothing has changed that much.


I certainly agree that there are reasonable and unreasonable scenarios for renegotiation.

And the words TO and reasonable have an infinite repulsion magnitude.
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:07 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:Just so we are clear, we are talking about different ends of the spectrum. Do you not have a problem with TO signing a 7 year, $49 million contract and wanting to renegotiate it 1 year later?? I know that I do. Nothing has changed that much.


I certainly agree that there are reasonable and unreasonable scenarios for renegotiation.

And the words TO and reasonable have an infinite repulsion magnitude.


Fair enough. It seems like we are closer on this than originally thought. There are certain real-life reasons why it might be necessary but athletes wanting to renegotiate 1 year later because someone else got a better deal is retarded.
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