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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:15 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:You ever refinance your mortgage?

Circumstances change. New information appears. What looked good then, looks bad now.

Unless you want to argue that every person and business should live with every choice they ever made, no matter the circumstances, I don't see what the big deal is.


And when you refinance, do you think that the mortgage company just does it to do the borrower a favor?? ;-7

It's a 2 way street. How is the team benefitting if the player resigns for a better deal??

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
thedude wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:...except for the first 7-10 years of their time as a player, of course, when they have almost no leverage.

Renegotiating is hardly unusual in contracts anywhere. And what leverage does a player have? Tank a season, and how much does that reduce your worth to another team?


I once heard a former player discribe the life a player this way:
The team has the leverage for the first 4-5 years of a players career. Then the the payer has the leverage for the next 5-6 years. Then the team has the leverage for the last 4 years.


I think that leaves out the 2-4 years of minor league ball, when the player also has little leverage. It also depends on the player's age. Come up at age 21, and you hit free agency right during your prime years. and you have a ton of leverage at the right time for several years.

Come up at age 25, and the team has a lot of leverage during your peak performing years. You hit free agency just as your performance starts to drop, and your leverage is minimal and short-lived.


Then don't sign a LT deal. It's that easy. You ignore any possible problems because of injury, etc. for some security. Does the player ever take a lesser contract if he has a bad year in the middle of a LT deal??
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:43 am

Lofunzo wrote:And when you refinance, do you think that the mortgage company just does it to do the borrower a favor?? ;-7

It's a 2 way street. How is the team benefitting if the player resigns for a better deal??


So, how does the player get the team to renegotiate and sign a deal that is not in their interest? Where's he hiding the gun held to their head?

Teams don't have to renegotiate. I don't see any reason to get ****** off about this, as the original poster did. It's part of business. Players want to renegotiate and teams can or cannot do that, depending on whether they see it is in their interest.

Lofunzo wrote:Then don't sign a LT deal. It's that easy. You ignore any possible problems because of injury, etc. for some security. Does the player ever take a lesser contract if he has a bad year in the middle of a LT deal??


You've missed the point. Individual players have no choice about that initial deal, because it's part of the CBA. Players are bound to their teams by the draft and the fact that players are underpaid early in their career directly leads to the need to take advantage of leverage whenever it appears.

As for your final question...performance incentives build that into contracts.
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:22 am

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:And when you refinance, do you think that the mortgage company just does it to do the borrower a favor?? ;-7

It's a 2 way street. How is the team benefitting if the player resigns for a better deal??


So, how does the player get the team to renegotiate and sign a deal that is not in their interest? Where's he hiding the gun held to their head?

Teams don't have to renegotiate. I don't see any reason to get ****** off about this, as the original poster did. It's part of business. Players want to renegotiate and teams can or cannot do that, depending on whether they see it is in their interest.

Lofunzo wrote:Then don't sign a LT deal. It's that easy. You ignore any possible problems because of injury, etc. for some security. Does the player ever take a lesser contract if he has a bad year in the middle of a LT deal??


You've missed the point. Individual players have no choice about that initial deal, because it's part of the CBA. Players are bound to their teams by the draft and the fact that players are underpaid early in their career directly leads to the need to take advantage of leverage whenever it appears.

As for your final question...performance incentives build that into contracts.


My main point was that, although the teams have the advantage in the beginning, the players have a choice down the road. They can risk injury and/or performance and sign a shorter contract for an ultimate payday down the road or they can opt for financial security and sign a long contract. Juan Gonzalez is the perfect example. He turned down something like $140M from the Tigers and is now selling pencils on the street corner. He made a choice and it bit him.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:56 pm

And my point is simply that the decision to make a choice at one point in time does not mean I give up all rights to request a reconsideration of that decision. Circumstances change, and I have the right to request a renegotiation of a contract that I feel may be out of line with current circumstances. The team has no obligation to do that, but may decide to do it.

So, I see no reason to get my panties all in a bunch when this happens in sports. Everyone of us, I can guarantee, has renegotiated a contract at some point in our lives. Getting worked up about this is just another example of the unrealistic standards most sports fans hold players to because of their envy of their $$$.
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Postby PlayingWithFire » Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:16 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:They can be a huge distraction on team. I can recall Nomar being cited as being difficult in the clubhouse and unhappy and forced his way out of town.


Yeah, the Red Sox were really completely and totally distracted by Nomar in 2004. They didn't accomplish a damn thing because of that huge distraction.

Nomar successfully forced his way out of town and into a contract worth $3.5 million less than what he was earning in Boston, not counting the playoff $ he missed the last two years.


They traded Nomar at the deadline and the distraction was gone. Once he was gone, the team was then able to win the World Series. If he was on that team for the whole yr, not sure it would be the same result.


They were in first place when he was traded. Couldn't have been too much of a distraction. He didn't distract them at all this year and they failed to win the World Series.


me think Yankees were in first place
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:08 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:And my point is simply that the decision to make a choice at one point in time does not mean I give up all rights to request a reconsideration of that decision. Circumstances change, and I have the right to request a renegotiation of a contract that I feel may be out of line with current circumstances. The team has no obligation to do that, but may decide to do it.

So, I see no reason to get my panties all in a bunch when this happens in sports. Everyone of us, I can guarantee, has renegotiated a contract at some point in our lives. Getting worked up about this is just another example of the unrealistic standards most sports fans hold players to because of their envy of their $$$.


Then I recommend that Fehr include this in the next labor agreement.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:47 pm

PlayingWithFire wrote:me think Yankees were in first place


You think wrong. On 7/31/04 the Red Sox were 56 and 46 and the Yanks were 56 and 47.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:50 pm

Lofunzo wrote:Then I recommend that Fehr include this in the next labor agreement.


What's to include? Nobody's asking for a binding requirement that teams be forced to renegotiate. All I've said is that the requests for renegotiation in contracts happen all the time and there's no reason to get all worked up about it happening in baseball.
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:01 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:Then I recommend that Fehr include this in the next labor agreement.


What's to include? Nobody's asking for a binding requirement that teams be forced to renegotiate. All I've said is that the requests for renegotiation in contracts happen all the time and there's no reason to get all worked up about it happening in baseball.


I don't see what the big deal is either. The way that I see it is that you have a set of rules currently in place. When a player first comes into the league, his rights are owned for X number of years. After that, he becomes a FA. At that time, he can either sign a LT deal for more security or he can sign a ST deal in the hopes that he produces and can earn more. Either way, I feel that he can ask for whatever he wants during the contract but it is just that. He should honor the contract that he signs.

Let's look at the Jeter contract although I feel this is the case for all sports. The only sport where the players can have a legitimate gripe is the NFL, IMHO. Those players can be cut at any time and lose the rest of their contract. All that they get in that case is their signing bonus and any money earned to date. Back to Jeter, A-Rod had just signed his deal and the market was set. He signed a 10 year deal. 2 things could have happened at that point. The market could have dried up and gone in reverse, as it did, or it could have exploded to where players like Renteria were making A-Rod money. That was a gamble by Jeter. He could have signed for less years but he chose to sign 1 last contract. That was his choice. The market changes but it is ultimately up to the player to sign a contract to which they agree. There really is no comparison to a normal workplace as normal employees usually don't sign contracts.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:14 am

Lofunzo wrote:That was his choice. The market changes but it is ultimately up to the player to sign a contract to which they agree. There really is no comparison to a normal workplace as normal employees usually don't sign contracts.


Nonsense. Many, many types of employees sign all sorts of labor contracts. Freaking union-management contracts get renegotiated constantly. It's exactly what happens ALL THE TIME in unionized workplaces...like baseball.

And, my point is not simply labor contracts, but that all sorts of contracts--sales contracts, supply contracts, service contracts--get renegotiated ALL THE TIME. It's not in any way unusual. It's a normal fact of business and no one I know of who has ever had any experience in the real world gets through much of life without renegotiating several contracts.

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