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The importance of your "gut" in poker...

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Postby Baseballer02 » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:56 am

Madison wrote:
Baseballer02 wrote:
Madison wrote: Took me awhile to learn to limp with jacks at ring games. Really wish I had learned it sooner though. :-P


You limp jacks regardless of your position and players you're up against? That seems a bit much. :-?


Full table, everyone called the blinds? Yep, I limp with Jacks. Only real chance I have to win is to spike a jack on the flop (1 in 8.5) and I'm not going to get the pot odds on a raise. Might as well be raising with ducks if you're going to raise with just jacks at a full ring game. Same odds of flopping your set.


I understand limping in with JJ in pokerplaya's posted hand. What I meant though was when you're holding JJ in middle or late position, are you not gonna raise your jacks to thin the field and buy the button? That's the situation I was referring too. If a couple loosey-goosey donkeys limp in and I'm next to act behind them ,I'm definitely throwing out a 4 or 5bb raise.
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Postby Madison » Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:17 am

Baseballer02 wrote:I understand limping in with JJ in pokerplaya's posted hand. What I meant though was when you're holding JJ in middle or late position, are you not gonna raise your jacks to thin the field and buy the button? That's the situation I was referring too. If a couple loosey-goosey donkeys limp in and I'm next to act behind them ,I'm definitely throwing out a 4 or 5bb raise.


Sure, I raise if I'm in mid to late position and there's been no calls yet (or just calls from the fish--I tend to take excessive notes online), but it's also an easy fold if overcards hit and I know I'm beat. Say for example I raise preflop with my J/J and the flop comes K/Q/4 rainbow. 2 callers and they check the flop to me. I bet, they raise, easy fold. Wasted the money on the preflop raise, and also wasted money firing at the pot with 2 overs out there though.

I've been working on the slow play with J/J and have found that to be surprisingly profitable. Say for example you get the 3 dinks on the flop, a raise on the turn tends to get called all the way down to the river since most online players can't belive someone limped with a mid pocket pair. Not to mention that most online players will fire at the pot with A/K or A/Q and no pair all the time. Like shooting fish in a barrel. My profit margin with J/J has gone way up since I started the slow play with them at ring games.

In tournaments, I play J/J both slow, and aggressive. Just depends on the situation, players, chipstacks, blinds, etc. Never hurts to throw a curveball out there. B-)
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Re: The importance of your "gut" in poker...

Postby wrveres » Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:44 am

pokerplaya wrote:Now, I think your gut is really important. A "sixth sense" as some have called it. I played this hand earlier, and lost about 15 bucks on it, though I don't know if I could have played it any differently even though my gut told me to get away from it.

Twenty-five dollar buy in PL Hold Em. The entire table has limped in, and I am looking at JJ as the final player to act. I push it to the pot limit, around two dollars, looking to thin the field quite a bit. It works, 3 of us see a flop.

Flop comes down AAJ. I flopped the full house. First guy to act bets minimum, begging for a call. Next guy calls, as do I. Turn is a 10. First guy bets real low again, next guy calls, I raise. I'm essentially then put all in by the first guy, the guy in the middle instantly folds and I'm left with a decision....call or fold?

How do I fold Jacks full here? I really felt like he had AJ, but I couldn't get myself to release it. So I call, lose most of my stack (he has less than I do) when he flips up AJ like I figured. So could anyone release Jacks full in that situation?

As I type this, I just got my KK cracked. Back to bad beat land... :-[


you played that fine, you just got beat. thats all
folding a boat is next to impossible
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Postby pokerplaya » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:57 pm

You are definitely right Mad, I did say he put me all in. Then in the next paragraph I said he had less chips then I did. Sorry about the sketcy details. I did have more than he did, though. :-/
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Postby bronxxbomber » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:07 pm

JJ is a strong hand. And the limits I play (2/4 and 5/10) it doesn't matter you have to raise that hand almost always. Early, Late, it doesn't matter. You do it to eliminate the field. I do mix it up though because on Party Poker, every keeps notes on you. So if I realize you like to limp with big hands a lot, I can play it a little different or even make sure I sit to your left and maybe take advantage.
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Postby pokerplaya » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:21 pm

Mad, question for you: you say the blinds are too small, I agree, relative to the amount of chips we have (the table is at Party Poker 25 dollar max buy in, five dollar minimum buy in).

However, is this really a cause for concern? This is where I make the majority of my money, in a good two hour session it's fairly easy to double up to 50 or so.

I'm still honing my tournament game over at Pokerstars, and making a profit, though smaller and more sporadically than this. So my question is, is it really a problem to have the blinds so low if I'm consistently winning a considerable amount of money?

My bankroll is NOT at the point where I want to move onto a 50 dollar buy in no limit table, that would be playing beyond my means at this point. At party poker, there is a lot of fish, and I just play my game at these .10/.25 tables and do just very well. Any real reason to stop? :-?

I'm just looking for some insight that I haven't managed to see, while not new to Texas Hold Em, I'm still new to online poker and full ring games. It's a whole different world than my 6 person home game. So your advice and insights, as obvious as they are to you, are definitely not to me.

Thanks. ;-D
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Postby ironman » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:29 pm

Remember what Rob says in High Fidelity

"Well, I've been listening to my gut since I was 14 years old, and frankly speaking, I've come to the conclusion that my guts have s*** for brains."

:-D
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Postby pokerplaya » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:30 pm

ironman wrote:Remember what Rob says in High Fidelity

"Well, I've been listening to my gut since I was 14 years old, and frankly speaking, I've come to the conclusion that my guts have s*** for brains."

:-D


Well said. Good movie, great book. ;-D
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Postby Madison » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:30 pm

pokerplaya wrote:Mad, question for you: you say the blinds are too small, I agree, relative to the amount of chips we have (the table is at Party Poker 25 dollar max buy in, five dollar minimum buy in).

However, is this really a cause for concern? This is where I make the majority of my money, in a good two hour session it's fairly easy to double up to 50 or so.

I'm still honing my tournament game over at Pokerstars, and making a profit, though smaller and more sporadically than this. So my question is, is it really a problem to have the blinds so low if I'm consistently winning a considerable amount of money?

My bankroll is NOT at the point where I want to move onto a 50 dollar buy in no limit table, that would be playing beyond my means at this point. At party poker, there is a lot of fish, and I just play my game at these .10/.25 tables and do just very well. Any real reason to stop? :-?

I'm just looking for some insight that I haven't managed to see, while not new to Texas Hold Em, I'm still new to online poker and full ring games. It's a whole different world than my 6 person home game. So your advice and insights, as obvious as they are to you, are definitely not to me.

Thanks. ;-D


The issue with the blinds being so low is that you will be sucked out on more frequently, since most online players will call a quarter with any two cards. Moving up limits helps stop that a bit.

Also, if you're making solid money, moving up is the next step in the process of becoming a better poker player. Sure, you can beat the table full of fish all day long. Won't make you a better player though. Granted, it doesn't hurt the bankroll any, but when you nab a fish at a bigger table, the payout is considerably larger, and making money is what online poker is all about.

Moving from the $25 max to the $50 max at Party really doesn't make a huge difference in the players there though. Here's an option for you. Buy in at a $50 max table with $25 and see what you think. I think you'll find the game still soft, but your profit margin will be bigger. ;-)
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Postby GSes » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:40 pm

madison is right, "gut" is very important in poker. this past september i had the matt damon on rounders beat of my life

the game was $1/$2 NL ($100 buy in)
I was up to over $350

Under the gun I have JJ just like pokerplayer did, I raised to 15 dollars preflop, and got 6 CALLERS!

there is 90 in the pot preflop and i am very nervous. The flop comes

4
4
4

I bet out 20, i only get 1 caller, and the guy who calls me is the table maniac who plays every hand and is always bluffing with a smile on his face. Earlier in the night i had AA, he had QQ, all in preflop the board comes 234A5.......we chop the pot, so needless to say he has my number

the Turn card is a JACK

so the board reads
4
4
4
J

I honestly am startin to think this guy has a frucking 4, and am pretty worried, so i just check, he bets 20, i call

the turn card is an 8
board reads
4
4
4
J
8

and I have JJ, I bet out 40, makin a defensive bet, as there is over 170 in the pot, he reraises ALL IN and he is the only guy at the table with more chips then me

I get that sick matt damon look on my face, I stand up, and looked at him and said...........I KNOW you have a 4, but i dont see anyway I can fold this hand, only 1 card in the deck beats me. so i call

and I knew it b4 the cards are even turned up he flips over 4/5 of harts for QUAD 4's

I lose the biggest pot of my life
900 dollars

one of the most sicknin feelings of my life, and i knew he had the 4 but i called nyways, to this day i think about it almost everyday. I should of folded, but its so hard to fold the 2nd EXTREME nuts like that

44 vs JJ
board
4
4
4
J
8

worst poker day of my life. the more i think about it, thats almost an impossible laydown, a lot of times that is how it goes in poker, nothin u can do.
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