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Ichiro Unhappy

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Postby blankman » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:07 pm

ZAZ wrote:
blankman wrote:
acsguitar wrote:
blankman wrote:
dyuen87 wrote:so the yankees will take him. ;-D


Have him play CF. ;-)

All they'd need him for is his incredible defense.


If the yankees get him I will be the happiest man in the world....That would be the best pickup ever!!

Send Giambi, Pavano, and some farm hands for Ichiro.

Please santa claus make it happen


Why the heck would you send Giambi like he's nothing? He's a better hitter than Ichiro.


I can understand getting some shyte for going a little overboard for saying Ichiro might be the best hitter ever, but you really think Giambi is better than him??? Please. What are batters suppose to do when they get up? Get a hit. Ichiro broke a very long standing MLB record for most of those in a season. That alone makes him one of the top hitters in my book, not to mention how he is not a true left hander but did that to get an extra step. Sorry if his fantasty stats don't add up to others in the league, that's not what I was getting at with my post before.


No....when you are at the plate, the point is not simply "get a hit." To truly add value to your team, you get ON BASE and hit for as many bases as you can- slugging. Jason Giambi does both of these things much, much better than Ichiro does. Heck, Giambi got on base at a better rate than anyone in the AL and 2nd in all of baseball at .440. Ichiro, on the other hand, .350. Not even close and 70th in baseball.

The second thing a hitter can do at the plate? Slug. And Jason Giambi outslugged him by 100 pts. So just how is Ichiro a better hitter?

The bit about whether he's a natural lefty or whatever is completely irrelevant because you don't get 'bonus stats' for such a thing. A hit is a hit, a walk is a walk and a base is a base.
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Postby ZAZ » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:46 pm

blankman what you say of course true, but hitters bat according to their role. Ichiro's has almost always been lead off in the majors, so he's been getting base hits. The article in the first post talks about how he changed his style to hit more HRs and 2Bs in the sencond half than any other half season so far. So, I was complimenting the guy on how he can be many types of a hitter (which I doubt Giambi can do) and go from one to the other in mid season. I'd say that's pretty impressive. If Ichiro wanted to be a slugger it's obvious that he could. But he's a lead off guy.
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Postby blankman » Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:41 pm

ZAZ wrote:blankman what you say of course true, but hitters bat according to their role. Ichiro's has almost always been lead off in the majors, so he's been getting base hits. The article in the first post talks about how he changed his style to hit more HRs and 2Bs in the sencond half than any other half season so far. So, I was complimenting the guy on how he can be many types of a hitter (which I doubt Giambi can do) and go from one to the other in mid season. I'd say that's pretty impressive. If Ichiro wanted to be a slugger it's obvious that he could. But he's a lead off guy.


I knew you would attempt to go this route...

The point of leading off is not to swing at everything and take very few pitches. The point is not to simply get a lot of singles while also making a lot of outs, but to GET ON BASE, while minimizing outs. Wouldn't you agree? After all, the result of a leadoff slapped single, infield single and walk are all the same and help your team equally.

We'll take the 1st half of Ichiro's season as his "leadoff style" and his 2nd half as "slugging style," in accordance with your statements and look at the results.

In the first half, as a leadoff hitter, you would think he would do his best to get on base for his teammates right? So he should have a high OBP right? He posted a .354, slightly better than his season total, but still a poor showing for a leadoff hitter. By contrast, Luis Castillo, Derek Jeter, Brian Roberts and Michael Young posted .385 or better in similar roles. As stated, Ichiro's SLG for the 1st half was low, .430 "because he was doing his job as a leadoff hitter."

Now let's take the 2nd half, with his "slugging style." He lost 8 points on his OBP, and gained 13 on his slugging. He hit only 3 more HR's and 3 more 2B's in the 2nd half than the first half. His SLG was .443, hardly indicative of a player who could be a slugger as you claim.

Now let's take Giambi. Sure, he probably couldn't hit as many singles as Ichiro does but why would he? Giambi already does a much better job of getting on base, while making fewer outs than Ichiro does, so he outhits Ichiro's "leadoff style," but at the same time, he is able to slug with the best of them, and very easily trumps Ichiro's "slugging style."

Jason Giambi is simply a better hitter because he is able to combine Ichiro's "two styles" into one constant package and in fact perform better in both respects than Ichiro can while concentrating on only one. Ichiro's never been able to outperform Giambi in either respect in any season of his career [with the obvious exception of 2004 when Giambi was nearly on his deathbed]. You see what I mean? ;-D
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Postby nikku88 » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:41 pm

I'll agree that Giambi is a better hitter, but there's no way that the M's would trade Ichiro for him.
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Postby carter » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:39 am

sounds like the M's need to fire Hargrove .. fire his ass, and let Ichiro hand-pick the new guy.. he's a franchise player and one of the best AVG hitters in history, and most importantly, the M's need to shake things up badly- they're on a long, slow, painful slide down the mountain .. and do it for the kids (Felix, Reed, Soriano, Yuhency, Lopez)
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Postby blankman » Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:31 pm

carter wrote:sounds like the M's need to fire Hargrove .. fire his ass, and let Ichiro hand-pick the new guy.. he's a franchise player and one of the best AVG hitters in history, and most importantly, the M's need to shake things up badly- they're on a long, slow, painful slide down the mountain .. and do it for the kids (Felix, Reed, Soriano, Yuhency, Lopez)


And yet another occurance of how overrated Ichiro is.

Among the best AVG hitters in history?
He ranked 23rd in AVG this season alone.

Its getting depressing how much ESPN's hype about him has distorted so many people's conception of his abilities. You'd think he was superhuman from the way so many people talk of him.
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Postby HOOTIE » Sun Nov 20, 2005 8:06 pm

ZAZ wrote:I can understand getting some shyte for going a little overboard for saying Ichiro might be the best hitter ever, but you really think Giambi is better than him??? Please. What are batters suppose to do when they get up? Get a hit.


Every hitters job is to create runs.

Yes, Giambi is a better hitter.

Career OPS+

Giambi 149
Ichiro 121

last year

Giambi 156
Ichiro 109

Career RC/27

Giambi 8.08
Ichiro 6.37

last year

Giambi 8.13
Ichiro 5.63

Career wise, and last year, Giambi is clearly better.

The leadoff comment doesn't mean anything. His job is still to create runs. Besides, he leads off once a game.

Ichiro is one of the best average hitters ever (31st place all-time). But hitting also includes oba and slugging.

I'm surprised Ichiro is whining. He's loved in Seattle, a strong Asian community. I can understand his wanting to win, but he's starting to sound like a guy named Griffey.
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Postby rotterdam_82 » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:06 pm

A batters job is to not make outs, and Giambi is one of the best EVER in this regard. Ichiro is good for selling tickets and thats about all his .350 OBP can give you.

He's much more suited to batting 5th with a couple of good OBP guys ahead of him so he can drive them in. But that isn't what the fans want aparently........
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Postby davidmarver » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:43 pm

To be honest, I think Giambi is a better hitter, but Ichiro brings the intangibles, making this a wash for the two teams.

Ichiro is a huge draw (fabricated or not) and rarely misses a game. Giambi has baggage, a large contract, and ?s still looming over his head.

Giambi is a far better hitter in that he encompasses all Ichiro does (albeit, not on the basepaths) and adds much more power and plate discipline at the same time. Ichiro is a good average hitter and can run the bases, but he doesn't do much else offensively. He doesn't walk and he strikes out far too often for his type of hitter. He's no Tony Gwynn.

While Ichiro is a good fielder, I'm not sure a corner outfielder is what the Yankees necessarily need...I think Giambi at first makes more baseball (maybe not business) sense than Ichiro in rightfield does.
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Postby hyacinth » Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:50 pm

I wonder if this means that the M's will make that rumored trade for Thome?
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