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Postby mcqfesijiba » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:16 pm

Wow. Between the ridiculous contracts that BJ Ryan, AJ Burnett, and Kevin Millwood have gotten, I can see why the Tigers have set their sights low this year in free agency. Did Rogers and Jones get overpaid? Yes, but at only 2 years each, they aren't really that bad of value overall and if necessary will be a whole lot more tradeable than the players with enormous contracts.

The Tigers have a lot of interesting wild cards on their team this year, but too many to be confident in this season being anything more than a run at .500.
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Postby tthousand66 » Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:52 pm

Do the Tigers have any shot at getting Miguel Tejada? I think not....but who knows.
I still think they should have paid the price for Beckett.

It seems next to impossible to get quality MLB talent to go to the crap hole ghetto of Detroit (sorry, I was born there and feel for y'all that are trapped there!) unless they over pay and over-extend (Mags/Irod) or get used up vets milking out one more multi-year deal for themselves (Percival/T Jones/Rogers).

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Postby moochman » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:30 pm

I can see little reason for the Tigers or Tejada to do this. Tejada spurned the Tigers 2 years ago when he was a FA. Why would he suddenly thing this is the place for him to be? I think he or the Orioles are sending up ballons to either gauge interest or drum some up.

As for our side of it, why would we want him? We already signed Ramon Martinez so our SS position is set. Okay enough sarcasm. I think the Tigers are not going to give up what ever Baltimore might ask. Verlander and Guillen, say. SS is one of the few positions that isn't a glaring weakness, so why mess with that position?
Dombro the GM has already indicated that Verlander is an untouchable, so who else could we trade?

I just can't see this as more than smoke. And for one of the few times in the last decade I agree with not making a trade for Tejada. We would have to give up too much for someone who I think can opt out of his contract in a year or two and has shown he doesn't like it here. Too bad because he is a joy to watch. Go elsewhere Miguel, I don't want to see you turn into a cancer ala Stick Rodriguez.
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Postby mcqfesijiba » Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:46 pm

moochman wrote:Dombro the GM has already indicated that Verlander is an untouchable, so who else could we trade?
Zumaya, Granderson, Bonderman, Shelton, Rodney, Maroth, Robertson are all players other teams like a lot. In the lower minors, Tata and Clevlen have also been getting interest. We actually have quite a few players other than Verlander that interest other teams, believe it or not, but I agree that Verlander has been pretty much declared untouchable as well as probably Bonderman.

I also agree there is pretty much no chance Tejada comes here. If he's unhappy in Baltimore, will he be happier here? Not a chance. Very few players actually want to come play for the Tigers, and in Tejada's case we already know that he doesn't want to come here based on when he was a free agent. Both the Tigers and Baltimore are two teams that will be just looking to get over the .500 mark, so coming here definitely won't be an improvement in his situation.
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Postby moochman » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:36 pm

As I have said before, I don't rate the Tigers' prospects nearly as highly as you. I will say that with the hole at third base and how cheaply Gluas was traded for wouldn't you think that maybe other teams don't feel as strongly about out players?
When the Marlins asked about trading Beckett they only wanted Verlander and some unnamed player(s). That is because they feel that he is the only Tigers player that has any reasonable chance as all-star type success.
There are trades being made, but the Tigers aren't in them. Do you think that is becuase they are happy with the team they have? I hope not, or my worst fears will be playing themselves out: Dombro has sold not only us a pile of crap, but he has bought it too.
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Postby mcqfesijiba » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:16 pm

moochman wrote:When the Marlins asked about trading Beckett they only wanted Verlander and some unnamed player(s). That is because they feel that he is the only Tigers player that has any reasonable chance as all-star type success.
Is there proof of that ever happening? Last I heard it was a rumor based off of an interview where DD was his usual vague self. The rumor I heard was Verlander AND Granderson along with an unnamed minor leaguer, which sounds about right given what Boston gave up.

A lot of the bigger name players rumored to be available or have been traded, I don't find to be particularly interesting. Glaus? Interesting player, but too risky at his price. I remember many Tiger fans being happy when he chose to go to Arizona instead of here, not that I'm even sure the Tigers ever officially offered him a contract in the first place or if they were just in the process of talking to his agent. Beckett? He was crying about his contract in Florida and he was attached to Lowell's awful contract. Tejada? Great player, but thinking he would be happier here than in Baltimore is ridiculous. Pavano?

There's still time left and if they leave the offense untouched, I wouldn't be too upset because it's the pitching where they need the most upgrading. I'd rather see them ultimately make some non-blockbuster moves not involving their top prospects. Nothing major, just fill a hole in the bullpen, maybe switch out Maroth or Robertson for another good right handed starter from a team that might be really needing a lefty, and maybe upgrade our bench so that Infante and Logan won't be counted on as starters if it becomes necessary in case of an injury (which it rather likely).
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Postby moochman » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:31 am

In an interview DD said that the Marlins approached him about a trade for Beckett and Lowell. Lowell who by the way is over paid but a very good glove at third with pop in his bat. At least not a total waste. Dumbro said the Marling started thier offer with Verlander and somw unnnamed players. DD said he told them, in essence, that Verlander wouldn't be envolved in any trade conversation and the call ended there.

I highly suspect any other names were projects in the minors, not Granderson. The way I see it DD would be way to happy to say they wanted Granderson just to show people that he is a sought after talent. But he didn't mention his name, so what does that tell you?

Tejada and Pavano were never comming here, neither was Glaus if he had any say. But that the Tigers weren't even putting their name out there tells me that they have no interest in trying to turn this team around in any meaningful way. The Beckett contract issues are another sign that the Tigers don't have much of a plan for long term success. If you are not going to pay for a pitcher who has won WS games and has top shelf PROVEN talent, what then do you do if Verlander thrives? Trade him when he is about to become a FA?

Man, I'll tell you that is not the kind of team that I can get behind. Show me where that has worked. It hasn't. The Twins have great scouts and coaches to supply them, we don't. This is the problem with the Tigers. They want to build a team with a minor league system that is so poor that they don't produce top talent despite years of top picks. Even the Royals land some talent, where are the Tigers rookie of the year candidates? So since the minors are working the only way to compete is to buy and trade for good players in their early prime, like Beckett.

Until then they are just giving their fans lip service.
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Postby tthousand66 » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:12 pm

Blame Randy Smith for the Tigers current state of affairs. Prior to his destruction of the teams reputation and storied history, FA's actually considered going to Detroit. Now, in addition to the city being a reason for guys like Vladi, Tejada and Pavano to look the other way, you have a team with a rep for losing in large numbers---with no turnaround in sight.

Minnesota is a low budget team that has thrived...the Tigers are in the middle of the pack salary-wise. Much of that from throwing out long term dumb deals (their only option now---thanks Randy Nepotism) to non-difference makers.

A better model for success may be the Tribe or the A's, who have built from a solid minor league base and suplemented with mlb ready talent at bargain prices or in desirable contractual situations.

Where is Detroit's Barry Zito, Mark Mulder, Tim Hudson, Bobby Crosby, Eric Chavez, Miguel Tejada? Where is Detroit's Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, CC Sabathia, Victor Martinez, Coco Crisp? Why is Detroit not supplementing a corps of youthful talent with one year deals for the Kevin Millwood's, Bob Wickman's, Keith Foulke's, Johnny Damon's, etc of the world?

Are the Tigers youngsters for real? Or are the Verlanders, Zumayas, Grandersons and Logans just FRAUDS like the other scrubs the Tigers have tried to pass off as prospects? Their track record of passing off their fradulant talent as the FUTURE tells me that dealing Verlander and ANYBODY from Toledo for a stud like Beckett is a NO BRAINER. I'll take my chances that the Tigers are STILL waiting for the next Jack Morris (last big time starter developed within) or Travis Fryman (last position top notch position player developed from within). I think that was around 20 years ago!

What has gone down since the Sparky days is now way more than just a TREND. It's the way of life in the Motor City.

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Postby mcqfesijiba » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:56 pm

moochman wrote:The Beckett contract issues are another sign that the Tigers don't have much of a plan for long term success. If you are not going to pay for a pitcher who has won WS games and has top shelf PROVEN talent, what then do you do if Verlander thrives? Trade him when he is about to become a FA?
The thing with Beckett is he looks like he is going to command so much money, that you're going to have to be a team like the Yankees or Red Sox to afford him. Putting that much money into a pitcher is often a reckless gamble. Pitching is among the most unpredictable things in baseball. Kevin Brown, Darren Dreifort, Carl Pavano, Chan Ho Park, etc. Is Beckett, whose shoulder is already raising concern, next? If the same thing were to happen to an approaching Free Agency Verlander as is happening to Beckett, which is still quite a ways away, and he had to be traded then so be it. It's more a product of the market than the state of the team.

And you're right about Mike Lowell. He's got quite a bit of pop in that bat. 8 HRs last year and a tremendous OBP that rivaled Pudge Rodriguez. His numbers overall don't make Pudge's look so bad. That loss of power is just scary. Hmm, he got his big contract and suddenly his performance drops. Or maybe his performance from 2005 was more of a Bret Boone-esque thing if you know what I mean. Is that really what this team needs? No, didn't think so. As you can tell I want absolutely no part of Beckett or Lowell especially if they would have come together at a high cost of prospects. Verlander, IMO, would have to absolutely require a once in a lifetime deal for me to trade him. I'm sure that the TB Devil Rays had similar attachments to Delmon Young and Seattle to Felix Hernandez.

Now I don't have any way of knowing if what you said is true or not about the DD interview, and take this for what it's worth, but if Verlander is just as appealing as Hanley Ramirez AND Anibal Sanchez to an organization with Florida's credentials for young talent, then I think we may all be underestimating Verlander. It took Boston two excellent prospects + a negliglble one to get the trade done, one of them being a valuable commodity of a SS prospect. And Florida has generally been a very good team at acquiring young players and developing them pretty much since DD was there. I was already thinking he is the best pitching prospect the Tigers have had since I've been watching them. He's easily a class ahead of what Jeff Weaver and Justin Thompson were.

Sure they can trade their top prospects for more "proven" talent, but despite an improvement overall in their minor league system, they still aren't at a point yet where they have a lot of margin for error. Instead I prefer to see the types of deals where they acquired Farnsworth last February, and then Polanco near midseason. Little deals like that coupled with a seemingly improving farm system go a long way. We are only entering DD's 4th full year as GM, and every year since his first full year, the talent at the MLB level and minor league level have improved. I've always been a believer that in baseball, which is not a quick fix sport for most teams outside of Boston or New York, that you need as many as 5 full years to see if a GM is getting the job done, unless there are obvious signs that the organization is going bad.

That's enough babbling for me for today. I guess you can say, I like to talk about baseball, especially the Tigers. I hated Randy Smith with a passion, but for some reason, what Dombrowski has been doing fascinates me, mostly in good ways, but with a few minor gripes along the way.
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Postby moochman » Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:09 am

mcq, I would have loved to have known what your impression was of Randy Smith when he was here. I mean considering that the minor league system was once voted the league's best while he was at the helm I can only wonder what you felt. My point is that in hind sight we see that the Tigers organization and Detroit press has misled both itself and it's public when it comes to it's talent. I see no evidence of change today.
Verlander might be a great prospect, but when he came up and pitched he didn't shut the opposition down. "He couldn't locate his curve" seemed to be an early theme. This excuse for a pitcher who is supposed to have a great fastball. Not good enough to get people out, but great nonetheless. Look at King Felix in Seatle, or the Brandon McCarthy(?) from Chicago. They came up and show some dominating stuff. Where is Verlander's?

Understand how much I want to be proven wrong, but I will but the Tigers propaganda when I can see results.
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