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Cashman Agrees to 3-Year Deal with Yankees

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Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:11 pm

blankman wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
blankman wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:Didnt Cashman develop the farm system that included Rivera and Jeter - the building blocks of the Yanks? Not sure but I thought I heard that somewhere.


No. He wasn't the GM then. It was Gene Michael who drafted Jeter etc.

Stick Michael (the guy that should be GM), Showalter, the scouts and a group of others were responsible for those players and are often given the credit for the dynasty, not Cashman.

I can't say I'm happy about this. I'm not pissed off, but I'm not sure what to think. :-/


Cashman was, however, the guy who brought in David Wells (the first time, when he was an absolute beast) Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Roger Clemens, Alfonso Soriano, David Justice, etc.

All moves which were vital to the Yankee dynasty. When the Yankees blew it in 2001, the front office lost credibility with Steinbrenner, and he turned into the old George. That is why this team has been run so differently. That's why Cashman and Torre and Michael have no say. That's why the show is run by morons like Emslie, Oppenheimer and Connors.


Yes, but he also brought in all that trash Yanks04 listed. You picked out 7 or so good moves, to the 30+ awful ones. He gave away Brazoban in the Weaver/Brown deal to add to that list Yanks made. As far as I know, he also told George no when George wanted Ortiz a few years ago.

We both know that its obvious that there are bigger problems in the leadership of the team than him, but I just don't see how Cashman has done enough to warrant having a job no less a big extension.

I sure hope I'm wrong and he finally, after several years of utter trash, fixes the bullpen and the rotation. The job he's done there has been abysmal.


You do not know that he brought in all of that trash. I've read that he hasn't even been consulted on some deals (like the Tony Womack one for instance.) Cashman has lost nearly all power since 2001. He doesn't get any credit when he makes a good move (Chacon) because some moron like Randy Levine claims credit for it. He gets all the blame though when things go wrong.

Cashman was a fine GM during the championship years. You don't become a moron overnight. He lost his say in the organization because George is irrational and was pissed after they lost in 2001. He went out and signed David Wells back by himself without consulting anyone. He wanted Sheffield while Cashman desperately argued to get Vlad. Cashman pulled off the A-Rod deal almost by himself. Cashman made alot of good deals when he had power.

To blame him for everything that has happened since 2001 is ridiculous. Read about what has happened since then. Go pick up "The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty," or read the NY papers. It's common knowledge that Cash has not been responsible for the terrible moves the Yankees have made. He has taken the public hit though, because he is technically the GM.
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Postby cnt » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:12 pm

I would have to lean towards being happy with Cashman resigning.
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Postby WharfRat » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:29 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:Cashman was a fine GM during the championship years. You don't become a moron overnight.


This is what I keep coming back to. Yes, there have been mistakes, and Cashman deserves his share of blame. But we really don't have the full story for a lot of these deals. I can't let him off the hook completely, but I also can't condemn him completely, because we all know Tampa's role has grown to at least SOME extent, and Cashman has also performed well at times in his NYY career. It's really tough to judge. I'm basically glad he's back, but it'll be interesting to see how things play out personnel-wise.

Edit: I should mention, I sorta know a guy who was Cashman's old college roommate from Catholic U. I should ask him what his take is since he knows Cashman, if I can track him down.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 10:40 pm

I've been putting together a little piece for the the last half hour or so...

Here are some posts from TheYanks04 immeadiately following some of the deals he listed under "garbage."

On Javier Vazquez:
He will be fine. And Weaver did himself in...a total gutless, whining coward.

As to Aaron "Swing and a Miss" Boone...he was not hated since day one...since day 2. Guy just blows.


You do not get paid 11M a year to under-achieve. Vaz will be fine. This is no gutless coward like Weaver. A lot more talent than Weaver too.


On Kevin Brown:
You know, this is almost becoming epidemic. Let's look for and grasp at every possible thought and straw as to how the Yanks will fall...oh the defense will get him now...wow. Yeah Brown becomes the picture of mediocrity. This guy is hurt, this guy is old, the defense, the pressure, yada yada yada. My god, can you imagine if other teams players were subjected to this utter apocalyptic nonsense? Oh Pedro's going down this year...bum arm and he is due...Oh Schilling has the lingering effects of that appendectomy...going to go 5-15 this year due to muscle strain. Just ridiculous.


Let's mot get ridiculous. MOyer is a quality pitcher and 20 game winner and I take him any day over the likes of Lowe, Kim or Wakefield. 41 or not, man can still pitch and get guys out. He is not potentially dominant like Pedro or Schilling or Brown/Moose/Vaz either, but he is certainly a quality pitcher.


On Carl Pavano:
As to how Pavano will do...I can only hope. He has good stuff IMO. What is he made of though? Still, thebest pitcher on the market on paper outside of Pedro. So the yanks really have no choice. Who else are they going to get instead ofPavano that would be better? Pedro is wrong for a lot of reasons and RJ is likely not going anywhere anytime soon.


Decent will be a marked improvement over the band of Weaver, CON-treras, Vazquez and Brown. All were and are HORRIBLE. Pavano has been plagued b injuries his career. But has basically pitched very welll when he is healthy.


Pavano has pitched in the WS on a championship club. It is not like he was Jeffy Boy in Detroit or Vazquez in front of 3000 fans in Montreal.


Links: http://fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/v ... er+vazquez
http://fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/v ... eff+weaver
http://fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/v ... &&start=15
http://fantasybaseballcafe.com/forums/v ... &&start=15


I can go on and on but I think you get the point.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:13 pm

-Weaver- I've heard you bash Ted Lilly as well. I'm sure if you were around the Cafe when the Weaver deal was made, you would have had no problem with it, just like you had no problem with Vazquez or Brown.

-RonDL- Hardly a bad player. He didn't perform in New York. He made the All-Star team the following year for SD and plays solidly in Detroit. Not a good signing, but hardly one to fire the man over.

-Hammond- Came off a year in which he had an ERA of like 1. Yankees lost Nelson and Karsay got hurt. He was the top bullpen guy on the market. He also had a nice year this year for San Diego.

-Vazquez- You praised the deal, as everyone else did. To blame him for this deal now, is ignorant. Hindsight is 20/20. You also continuously rip Nick Johnson.

-Brown- See Javier Vazquez. Brown was coming off of a year in which he was better than Roger Clemens. His ERA was like 2.4. And we got rid of Weaver, who you hate so much.

-Benitez/Nelson II- You b!tch about Benitez, but then you also b!tch about Jeff Nelson, who he was traded for. You can't complain about one player, and then complain about the player he's traded for too. If you are in favor of getting rid of Benitez, don't whine about Jeff Nelson. Same goes for Ted Lilly and Weaver and Brown. It's a domino effect. If you want to get rid of one, fine. But don't piss all over that deal when the guy you got in return turns out to be crap as well. You've done this on an unbelievable amount of occasions (Stanton/Heredia, Weaver/Brown, Contreras/Loazia, Quantrill/Redding/May, etc.)

-Stanton II/Heredia- Got him for Heredia. You can't complain about Heredia and then about Stanton. It was one or the other. Stanton obviously had more upside than Felix. It was apparent how much talent he had.

-Quantrill/May/Redding- Quantrill was fine in 2004. He was coming off of a great season with the Dodgers. He was overworked and lost it in 2005. They traded him for May and Redding (who you also complain about.) Again, if you want him gone, fine. But you can't then say that the guys he traded him for are also a call for his firing.

-Proctor- Came in a trade with Bubba Crosby for Robin Ventura. Yeah, that was a no-no. ;-7

-Womack- I've read on several occasions that he didn't even know about the signing. In any case, it was awful and if he did make it, he should be blamed for it.

-Wright- See Tony Womack.

-Pavano- You praised the deal. He was the best pitcher on the market outside of Pedro, who you admitted had too much downside.

-Tino II- He carried the team in May. Without him, the team probably lost a few more games.

-Lofton- Bad signing.

-Leiter- Oh, so who should they have got to start that game against Boston? Maybe they should've called Sean Henn back up to the majors? Give me a break. Leiter wasn't good by any means, but nobody expected him to be. They were desperate. They needed anyone they could get at that time. He costed nothing.

-Mendoza II- They signed him to a minor league contract and let him rehab. You know, like they did with Jon Lieber and El Duque? I didn't see them on your list though.

-Hitchcock- Bad.

-Loaiza- You hated Contreras. They saved alot of money on this trade, and Loaiza was actually very good late in the 2004 season. No reason why he's on this list.

-Tony Clark
-Enrique Wilson
-Travis Lee
-Homer Bush II
-Rey Sanchez
-Dellucci
-K. garcia

Who cares? All were bench players for the most part. The only reason any of them got to play were because of injuries. Most of this list is comprised of players like this. Pull up all of the transactions of every team in the MLB over the last 5 years. You think every one of every team's moves panned out? These were crap players. Not big signings that went bust.

-Witasik
-Osuna
-Acevedo
-Groom
-Embree
-Miceli
-Choate
-Franklin
-Prinz
-G. White
-Orosco
-Adrian Hernandez

Again, who cares? You b!tching about a bunch of mopup relievers. Yeah, Jesse Orosco and Adrian Hernandez were really the straw that broke the camel's back, huh? Give me a break dude. If you're going to bust them on Cashman, finger the big crippling moves, not moves like Antonio Osuna and Dan Miceli.
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Postby davidmarver » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:26 pm

Bronx...you're missing the point. Hindsight may be 20/20 but you can't judge GMs based on the deals they make at the time of the deal. You have to see how it works out and I can tell you Cashman has failed more than he has succeeded.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:32 pm

davidmarver wrote:Bronx...you're missing the point. Hindsight may be 20/20 but you can't judge GMs based on the deals they make at the time of the deal. You have to see how it works out and I can tell you Cashman has failed more than he has succeeded.


So you can blame Cashman for Randy Johnson? If I signed Albert Pujols and he hit .250, that's my fault?

I don't think so. Cashman didn't make blatantly moronic moves. He made moves that made sense. It's not his fault that these clowns didn't perform. Nobody was questioning the fact that the Yankees NEEDED Javy Vazquez and Kevin Brown to replace Pettitte and Clemens. Hell, people (non-Yankee fans included) were saying that the Vazzy-Brown combo was an improvement over Clemens-Pettitte. Vazquez was a dominant young pitcher and Brown was younger than Clemens and was coming off a better season.

It's one thing to make signings like Jaret Wright, which are just moronic moves. It's another to bring in players of quality who have talent like Vazquez and RANDY JOHNSON and see them crumble like rookies. Has Cashman made bad moves? Hell yeah. Nobody is saying he's the best GM in baseball. But alot of the moves have not been his fault. He has either not had anything to do with them, or the players have failed him.
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Postby blankman » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:33 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
blankman wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
blankman wrote:
RocketsDWM wrote:Didnt Cashman develop the farm system that included Rivera and Jeter - the building blocks of the Yanks? Not sure but I thought I heard that somewhere.


No. He wasn't the GM then. It was Gene Michael who drafted Jeter etc.

Stick Michael (the guy that should be GM), Showalter, the scouts and a group of others were responsible for those players and are often given the credit for the dynasty, not Cashman.

I can't say I'm happy about this. I'm not pissed off, but I'm not sure what to think. :-/


Cashman was, however, the guy who brought in David Wells (the first time, when he was an absolute beast) Chuck Knoblauch, Scott Brosius, Roger Clemens, Alfonso Soriano, David Justice, etc.

All moves which were vital to the Yankee dynasty. When the Yankees blew it in 2001, the front office lost credibility with Steinbrenner, and he turned into the old George. That is why this team has been run so differently. That's why Cashman and Torre and Michael have no say. That's why the show is run by morons like Emslie, Oppenheimer and Connors.


Yes, but he also brought in all that trash Yanks04 listed. You picked out 7 or so good moves, to the 30+ awful ones. He gave away Brazoban in the Weaver/Brown deal to add to that list Yanks made. As far as I know, he also told George no when George wanted Ortiz a few years ago.

We both know that its obvious that there are bigger problems in the leadership of the team than him, but I just don't see how Cashman has done enough to warrant having a job no less a big extension.

I sure hope I'm wrong and he finally, after several years of utter trash, fixes the bullpen and the rotation. The job he's done there has been abysmal.


You do not know that he brought in all of that trash. I've read that he hasn't even been consulted on some deals (like the Tony Womack one for instance.) Cashman has lost nearly all power since 2001. He doesn't get any credit when he makes a good move (Chacon) because some moron like Randy Levine claims credit for it. He gets all the blame though when things go wrong.

Cashman was a fine GM during the championship years. You don't become a moron overnight. He lost his say in the organization because George is irrational and was pissed after they lost in 2001. He went out and signed David Wells back by himself without consulting anyone. He wanted Sheffield while Cashman desperately argued to get Vlad. Cashman pulled off the A-Rod deal almost by himself. Cashman made alot of good deals when he had power.

To blame him for everything that has happened since 2001 is ridiculous. Read about what has happened since then. Go pick up "The Last Night of the Yankee Dynasty," or read the NY papers. It's common knowledge that Cash has not been responsible for the terrible moves the Yankees have made. He has taken the public hit though, because he is technically the GM.


No one blames him for everything but with all the absolute garbage they've spent money on, some of it has to go on Cashman's head. Which ones in particular don't much matter as there have been countless of them. The team has made some good moves, but many, many more terrible ones and he has to be held at least partially responsible. No one is saying its all his fault, but he's not blameless like you make him out to be.

I sure hope he does a better job this time.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:37 pm

Sure I hold some blame on him. But I strongly believe that Cash has little say in what goes on. You may believe he made every single deal. I don't. I see an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the theory that Steinbrenner listens to Emslie and Connors and Oppenheimer. Cashman has made bad moves, no doubt. But every GM does. You guys are pissing and moaning about mopup relievers and bench players.

The major stars that have been busts have not really been his fault. They either folded when they got to New York like Vazquez or RJ, or he had nothing to do with the signings in the first place like Wright and Womack.

Blame it on the media or the bright lights or blame it on coaching, but guys like RJ, Vazquez, etc. need to perform. It's not Cashman's fault that they didn't.
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:45 pm

Just one thing to add to this thread:

You can't be sipping the Cashman Kool-Aid on all the positives the Yankees have done under his guidance, and then turn around and say he had nothing to do with the crapper deals. He's either in on both or in on neither. None of this bending of logic to shed some sort of false light on the guy. What he was/wasn't involved with, I don't really care, nor do I think we ever get the full story on. Be that as it may, he's brought in some talent, and he's brought in some garbage. You can justify and spin it any way you want to your heart's desire, but at the end of the day, it's there in black and white. He's no super-GM, but I don't think he's some hack, either.

Just pick, though. Either he was involved in bringing in the goods as well as the trash, or he had nothing to do with either. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It makes your argument invalid and unsound.
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