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The NBA is racist...

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Postby Coppermine » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:28 pm

Irish wrote:I'd like to think this has ZERO to do with race, but that would be a little idealistic. Either way, go ahead and slap suits on people and make believe the problems are decreasing. As long as people are comfortable with the image the problem seems to lessen in their minds.


That is EXACTLY what all of this comes down to Irish. It's just a fact of life, but that is the situation. I know you don't like it, I know you think it's dumb... but I'm curious, how old are you? I have a feeling that as you get older you'll realize that the world sucks, people are bigots, image is everything, and how people perceive you based on your outward appearance is a major factor of how successful you'll be. It's that simple and I know it sucks, but that's just how it is.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:37 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:The point, which you completely missed, was to show that we can't use unreliable surveys and websites to back our arguments. And to answer your question: No, I don't actually think 25% of the members of congress have criminal records. I do, however, actually think that 95% of them are criminals...but I'm sure less than 10% actually have records.


Yeah - I guess I didnt get that point from what you wrote at all - still dont. It really looked to me that the point of your post was to deflect criticism of NBA players by saying every industry has criminals. Of course that wasnt the argument either - the argument was that the NBA has a higher rate of criminal activity than the other professional sports. I believe this. This was corroborated by a study. You dont want me or other people to believe the study - which is fine - but then you dont give credible evidence why we should not believe it (he used the same criteria for measuring all of the sports - so attacking the criteria isnt a valid argument against the study) and further you then try and jump to the conclusion that all studies and surveys are useless, so why bother. Of course we have to base our assumptions and judgements on something - so what would you suggest? And please - dont repeat the altruistic "we shouldnt judge anyone" nonsense that Irish tried to use.

There is a problem in the NBA. Denying it, Ignoring it, Accepting it or Rationalizing it is destructive to the game and its fans. We must address it and provide solutions to fix it.

Oh yeah - all politicians lie, cheat, and steal - I agree with you. But then again, that really isnt the point of this discussion either, is it?
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Postby wrveres » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:50 pm

cracks me up ..

6 pages and not one solution ..
The only thing we got was backlash on the one guy who is trying something ... Stern

.. as for sterotypes ...

* If I see some kid dressed in all black, wearing eye make up and a Def Leppard T-shirt, there is a good chance he is a stoner (which is illegal btw)

* If I see some guy with a shaved head and swastika tattooed on the back of his skull, I have reason to believe that he may be a racist, and there is a good chance he will take part in a race crime (which is illegal btw)

* If I see a group of muslims in their normal dress praying at a NY Giants game when the president of the US is there, I have reason to believe someting sinister is going on ..

* and if I see a bunch of NBA players dressed like criminals, I am not supposed to believe that they support and even condone the Thug life style ... ?

gotcha.


so again, back to my first question.
sense a dress code is a stupid idea that won't work .. what is your solution to fix the image problem the NBA has?
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Postby Coppermine » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:57 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Instead of saying "There are criminal players, we need to fix that" we should be saying "Don't expect your professional athletes to be anything other than athletes."


Actually, this was the solution proposed by our resident architect... not to fix the problem, but to accept it because it's inevitable. In other words, the answer isn't action, it's apathy.

I think that's wrong, and that the dress code is a step in the right direction, whether it's fair or not. It won't change the way the players behave, but I think their behavior is unacceptable and should be addressed with harsh punishments.

Saying that because someone is an athlete it gives them the same "rights' to be criminals as any other professional is irresponsible.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:58 pm

Irish wrote:For the twentieth time, the diverse amount of people (violent, non-violent, white, black, asian, etc etc etc) that in some way wears hip hop clothing completely diminish any point people have when they say "that person is dressed like a thug, so they probably act like one". This isn't racism, this is retardism, cause you gotta be retarded to think a sideways hat and a pair of baggy jeans makes someone more prone to illegal acts. Especially when there are thousands of illegal acts going on by guys in suits right now.


Gotta disagree here too. The way you dress generally speaks about the environment you live in - who your idols are, the music you listen to, the type of things you cherish or the type of actions you hold in high regard. You can believe me or not, but generally speaking, a person who dresses in Hip Hop clothing listens to rap and R&B music. Rap and R&B music have a distinct tone and message that prevade the majority of that genre of music. This directly influences those who listen to it. Same can be said for Country, Hard rock, techno, etc.

If you dont think people can be judged fairly accurately by the clothes they wear and the music they listen to along with other outward signs of what makes that person, then I cant help you.

One thing to note - no one is saying that EVERYONE who dresses like a gangster is a gangster. However, it would also be erroneous to think that the person who dresses like a gangster is just as likely to commit a crime as someone with a nun's flock on.

One day you will come to realize that people judge you constantly - and you do the same to them. Strengthening who you are on the inside is all well and good - but its your outward actions that tell a good portion of who you are on the inside.
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Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:27 pm

Coppermine wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Instead of saying "There are criminal players, we need to fix that" we should be saying "Don't expect your professional athletes to be anything other than athletes."


Actually, this was the solution proposed by our resident architect... not to fix the problem, but to accept it because it's inevitable. In other words, the answer isn't action, it's apathy.


No. I'm not saying we should be apathetic towards the problem, I'm saying we should recognize what the real problem is and take action on a personal level.
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Postby wrveres » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:05 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Coppermine wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Instead of saying "There are criminal players, we need to fix that" we should be saying "Don't expect your professional athletes to be anything other than athletes."


Actually, this was the solution proposed by our resident architect... not to fix the problem, but to accept it because it's inevitable. In other words, the answer isn't action, it's apathy.


No. I'm not saying we should be apathetic towards the problem, I'm saying we should recognize what the real problem is and take action on a personal level.


and what is the real problem?
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Postby Irish » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:03 pm

Ok, let me start by saying I'm not naive and believe everyone sees the person within and all that BS.

I'm 23 been outta college for a year and a half, and am not some idealistic newb or anything like that.

I'm not arguing that people are judged on their appearances. OFCOURSE THEY ARE, that is not what I'm debating. What I'm saying is that the people who make the assumptions are the ones we have a problem with.

No, in extreme examples (Like a swatzika on a head, or a KKK hood) there are pretty obvious assumptions to make based on those outward characteristics.

But if you assume someone smokes pot because of a def leoppard shirt and some eye make-up, you may be right, but making that presumption only causes more animosity between groups and less communiation about underlying issues.

For every person wearing a grateful dead shirt that smokles pot, there is another fan of the band who doesn't. For every person that wears a JOhn Deere hat and isn't a "big fan" of blacks, there is someone else wearing one that has black friends.

Now, are their minorities and majorities in these circumstances, ofcourse. But the minute the word majority becomes "all" or "99%" then we start facing a problem, which I think we're facing here. Suddenly the most prolific people representing a certain style are assigned characteristics that are spread to everyone that uses that same style.

Whether hip hop fashion started with "gangsters" is up for debate, but I agree that the most recognizable wearers of hip-hop are associated with a gangster lifestyle (dre, snoop, fifty, eminem). But this is because death/violence/money/fame are the only things people are interested in these days, cause it sells.

So, unfortunately for the NBA players, they are grouped in with these people's lifestyles whether they want to or not, simply because they are fans of the same things.

I'm not saying there aren't players who aren't violent/disrespectful of the law, but making vast generalizations isn't getting us anywhere either.

What would I do, if not a dress code???

Penalize athletes that committ crimes extremely harshly. Don't punish people who haven't done anything yet. Instead suspend players for half the season if they get a DUI. Suspend them for the year if they beat their wife etc.

Since money is the only thing that they are worrying about, just start messing with it. Get caught with drugs? There goes 10% of your salary, sorry.

Ofcourse the player union might not ever allow this, but the guys are running around lawless like anyone with money, so if stern has the ability I think he should start hitting the players where it hurts.
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Postby Coppermine » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:29 pm

I did a Google image search for "stoner"

I found this guy:

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Yeah, he's not really dressed in any particular way, but he does look like a stoner to me.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:34 pm

I guarantee that there are more deadheads who do smoke pot than those who dont. I would bet my life savings on it.

Irish - you are still young my friend. Generalizations become generalizations for a reason - and often they are useful. Generalizing a group of people isnt necessarily always a bad move.
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