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Postby lesgrant » Wed Oct 19, 2005 3:21 pm

wrveres wrote:
dyuen87 wrote:
wrveres wrote:what an absolutle disgusting organaization. :-t


disgusting organization? :-b :-b you got jokes man. not only are the yankees the most recognized baseball organization in the world, we have the most rings. ;-D no team has more history, more class, or better fans (i know im arrogant but it's true :-D ). steinbrenner may be a jerk but lets not forget he doesnt skimp on where he can make an impact, the wallet. he dishes out money like nothing, why? to bring the best players he can to the yankees, to try to win a championship, and to please the fans. trust me if you had an owner that did that you wouldnt call it "absolute disgusting organization." dont hate man. respect. :-D


BTW, this is the type of decsions REAL baseball teams need to make ..

Now there is a class organization.

I say we kick the Yankees out of the league and let them play against them selves 162 times a year. Then lets see how much money they have to throw around. :-t


Aaah, wrveres: poster-fan for Yankee-hate. You’ve managed to bait a couple of bright-eyed Yankee fans. But you are overextended.

In terms of the Yankees literally being in a league of their own and playing (with) themselves: why don’t you put it to the rest of the league owners for a vote? Do you want to guess the outcome, given that Yankee home games represent the biggest payday any of them will have all year, every year? Moreover, do you think they will want to give back their revenue sharing spoils? Do you honestly believe the Tampa Bay Devil Rays’ ownership would prefer to be on par with the likes of the Reds or the Royals as opposed to being beaten by the Yankees (although not this year)? We already have a system like that. It’s called Triple-A.

In terms of an argument for a salary cap: You have yet to make one. Small market fans being pissed off because they will never have equal resources is NOT an argument as much as it’s a pity-party invite. Hear that? It’s the sound of the smallest violin with a broken string and a frayed bow playing your song. And it will continue playing your song over and over again because the imbalance that keeps you up at night will NEVER change. In fact, your boy GW and his cronies will give back their fortunes before the league agrees to strip the Yankees of theirs.

The funniest thing about salary cap crybabies is that they act like the $200 mil is coming out of their own pockets.

And spankies?! Don’t you haters have any originality whatsoever? Do you think that if you hit the same note over and over again, baseball will listen? Silly Yankee-hater, don’t you know that we don’t care how much Big Stein spends?

BTW: Mike Lupica called, looking for his credibility. I told him you took the last of it and flushed it down the toilet with your recent string of posts on this tread.

Oh, and GO BRKLYN BLACK & GOLD! soon to be 2005 H2H Super Bowl East Champs!
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Postby Cleveland Steamers » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:20 pm

Im surprised so many Yankee fans want Torre back. The guy has so many tools at his disposal and he barely takes them to the playoffs. That doesnt really translate into a coach that should automatically get rehired or a guy that I would want rehired if I were a Yankee fan. The guy is more of an ego mesher than a real manager but ego meshing or not, that doesnt make up for the fact that the Yankees have ARod, Sheffield, Jeter, Posada, Matsui, RJ, Mussina, Rivera, Pavano (hurt but still), very productive Aaron Small, and a productive Giambi. This team was built to win under any circumstance. While Torre does a decent job (at best) at keeping ego's in check, he is by no means a top manager which shouldnt translate into the huge deal he got to stay. The Yankees barely made the playoffs with a $206 million payroll which is unacceptable. If I were a Yankee fan Id not only be mad but I'd be preparing myself for the beginning of the end. The Yankees will continue to go out and buy talent (which is usually a terrible move),while their older players are getting older. The Yankees have a few years before there players begin the downslide of their careers. It is nice to see Bernie and KBrown come off the books but Im sure Steinbrenner will just go out and buy the next 37 year old player that had/could have a good year. The bank has got to end at some point. Torre obviously isnt doing a great job meshing ego's if a team with that immense talent can hardly make the playoffs. ARod by himself gives an immense boost to a team, but when paired with Sheffield, Jeter, and Matsui...the offense should never end no matter if Rickie Ricardo himself was throwing for the Yanks. Torre should be on the hot seat for the job he has done but Im obviously off base since so many Yank fans are happy to see him back. I just dont get it.

A comparison:
Cleveland = 41,830,400
New York= 205,938,439

4.92 times the salary of Cleveland :-o :-o :-o
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Postby dyuen87 » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:28 pm

okay lets not compare the yankees to the indians okay? these two had completely different seasons. first of all torre did not have all his tools this season okay? when you dont have pavano for most of the aseason, an absolute disgusting kevin brown, ball/bat-attracting jaret wright, and an inconsistent giambi, you dont have all your weapons. soon as milwood, sabathia, and westbrook go down come back and talk to me. secondly, the indians did not make the playoffs, thanks to their choke in the final week. so maybe the indians should spend more money? :-o :-o
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Postby dyuen87 » Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:33 pm

wrveres wrote:where did you go?

aren't you going to tell what I should think about the Jets? :-)


im sorry i dont spend every second here. im taking a break for a few weeks and getting ready for bball. you can call the yankees organization whatever you want. but switching back to the original topic of the thread. torre coming back doesnt mean theres not gona be change. torre said he's gona get in contact with mazzone as soon as he hears that he's got interest in coming to NY. i can pray for a miracle right? :-D
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Postby blankman » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:45 am

Cleveland Steamers wrote:Im surprised so many Yankee fans want Torre back. The guy has so many tools at his disposal and he barely takes them to the playoffs. That doesnt really translate into a coach that should automatically get rehired or a guy that I would want rehired if I were a Yankee fan. The guy is more of an ego mesher than a real manager but ego meshing or not, that doesnt make up for the fact that the Yankees have ARod, Sheffield, Jeter, Posada, Matsui, RJ, Mussina, Rivera, Pavano (hurt but still), very productive Aaron Small, and a productive Giambi. This team was built to win under any circumstance. While Torre does a decent job (at best) at keeping ego's in check, he is by no means a top manager which shouldnt translate into the huge deal he got to stay. The Yankees barely made the playoffs with a $206 million payroll which is unacceptable. If I were a Yankee fan Id not only be mad but I'd be preparing myself for the beginning of the end. The Yankees will continue to go out and buy talent (which is usually a terrible move),while their older players are getting older. The Yankees have a few years before there players begin the downslide of their careers. It is nice to see Bernie and KBrown come off the books but Im sure Steinbrenner will just go out and buy the next 37 year old player that had/could have a good year. The bank has got to end at some point. Torre obviously isnt doing a great job meshing ego's if a team with that immense talent can hardly make the playoffs. ARod by himself gives an immense boost to a team, but when paired with Sheffield, Jeter, and Matsui...the offense should never end no matter if Rickie Ricardo himself was throwing for the Yanks. Torre should be on the hot seat for the job he has done but Im obviously off base since so many Yank fans are happy to see him back. I just dont get it.

A comparison:
Cleveland = 41,830,400
New York= 205,938,439

4.92 times the salary of Cleveland :-o :-o :-o


Last I checked, you need to pitch in order to be a good team. Just ask the Texas Rangers or the 05 Red Sox.

With all the injuries and wasted money on the staff its an absolute miracle they made the playoffs. That staff featured such starters as Henn, May, Redding, Sturtze, DePaula, Leiter, Proctor and likely a couple other scrubs. Chacon and Small saved that team's pitching, a problem that had nothing to do with Torre.
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Postby RynMan » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:54 am

Hmmm yankee arguments. :-L

To get back to the topic, I think the Yanks would be crazy to lose Torre. I think he does a very good job with that team.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:58 am

Cleveland Steamers wrote:Im surprised so many Yankee fans want Torre back. The guy has so many tools at his disposal and he barely takes them to the playoffs. That doesnt really translate into a coach that should automatically get rehired or a guy that I would want rehired if I were a Yankee fan. The guy is more of an ego mesher than a real manager but ego meshing or not, that doesnt make up for the fact that the Yankees have ARod, Sheffield, Jeter, Posada, Matsui, RJ, Mussina, Rivera, Pavano (hurt but still), very productive Aaron Small, and a productive Giambi. This team was built to win under any circumstance. While Torre does a decent job (at best) at keeping ego's in check, he is by no means a top manager which shouldnt translate into the huge deal he got to stay. The Yankees barely made the playoffs with a $206 million payroll which is unacceptable. If I were a Yankee fan Id not only be mad but I'd be preparing myself for the beginning of the end. The Yankees will continue to go out and buy talent (which is usually a terrible move),while their older players are getting older. The Yankees have a few years before there players begin the downslide of their careers. It is nice to see Bernie and KBrown come off the books but Im sure Steinbrenner will just go out and buy the next 37 year old player that had/could have a good year. The bank has got to end at some point. Torre obviously isnt doing a great job meshing ego's if a team with that immense talent can hardly make the playoffs. ARod by himself gives an immense boost to a team, but when paired with Sheffield, Jeter, and Matsui...the offense should never end no matter if Rickie Ricardo himself was throwing for the Yanks. Torre should be on the hot seat for the job he has done but Im obviously off base since so many Yank fans are happy to see him back. I just dont get it.

A comparison:
Cleveland = 41,830,400
New York= 205,938,439

4.92 times the salary of Cleveland :-o :-o :-o


Another comparison:

Cleveland Indians (1915 - 2005) - 2 World Championships, 5 Pennants, and 9 Playoff Appearances

Joe Torre (1996 - 2005) 4 World Championships, 6 Pennants, and 10 Playoff Appearances

I don’t think you want to get into a top-to-bottom comparison of the Yanks vs. Indians as a franchise. It would get brutal for you.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:13 am

Hmmm. Before we fall over ourselves with Torre praise, let's not forget that the primary reason this guy is good for the Yanks is his handling of the job and personnel off the field. His on the field stewardship frankly blows the past 3 or 4 years.


Remember this is the same guy that:

a. Cost us the 2003 WS with his inexplicable inclusion of Weaver on the roster and even more inexplicable USE of Weaver in a key situation. Was there a Yankee fan that did not know we lost that game as soon as Jeffy Boy walked in? I doubt it. And to this day Torre has not explained why he did it. All we have ever heard was that "IF I did not use him then, he did not deserve tobe on the roster"...that's right Joe, he didn't, so why did you?

b. Steered the biggest choke in MLB history during the 2004 ALCS. Make a number of blunders along the way including pitching to D. Ortiz with Mienkawitz on deck, pitching EL Duque Game 4 after a rainout instead of Moose setting up K. Brown for a game 7.

c. Actually being insane enough too start K. Brown in Game 7 with none other than Vazquez in reserve.

d. Continually going to Gordon in 2004 in the playoffs after he basically shot his arm off because of Torre's overuse by August.

e. Repeatedly using Felix Heredia, now of steroids fame in 2004.

f. Using Alan Embree this year.

And those are just some of the lowlights.
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Postby lesgrant » Fri Oct 21, 2005 3:12 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:Hmmm. Before we fall over ourselves with Torre praise, let's not forget that the primary reason this guy is good for the Yanks is his handling of the job and personnel off the field. His on the field stewardship frankly blows the past 3 or 4 years.


Remember this is the same guy that:

a. Cost us the 2003 WS with his inexplicable inclusion of Weaver on the roster and even more inexplicable USE of Weaver in a key situation. Was there a Yankee fan that did not know we lost that game as soon as Jeffy Boy walked in? I doubt it. And to this day Torre has not explained why he did it. All we have ever heard was that "IF I did not use him then, he did not deserve tobe on the roster"...that's right Joe, he didn't, so why did you?

b. Steered the biggest choke in MLB history during the 2004 ALCS. Make a number of blunders along the way including pitching to D. Ortiz with Mienkawitz on deck, pitching EL Duque Game 4 after a rainout instead of Moose setting up K. Brown for a game 7.

c. Actually being insane enough too start K. Brown in Game 7 with none other than Vazquez in reserve.

d. Continually going to Gordon in 2004 in the playoffs after he basically shot his arm off because of Torre's overuse by August.

e. Repeatedly using Felix Heredia, now of steroids fame in 2004.

f. Using Alan Embree this year.

And those are just some of the lowlights.


But nonetheless, his record over the past ten years is untouchable by any of his contemporaries and most of his predecessors. He is a certifiable HOFer and history will put your list above in its rightful context.

The list you detailed is HIGHLY debatable, as no sporting contest is decided by a single play or coaching decision. (For example, I blame Fat Boy Wells’ Game 5 gaffe for blowing the 2003 series.) But the rings Torre won (and Buck did not) are not debatable.

Out of the tens of thousands of decisions a manager must successfully make through the course of one championship season, you have managed to pull 6 or 7 debatably bad moves over the course of ten years while ignoring the thousands of right decisions he made – especially those which occurred in the post-seasons where we won 4 WS inside of 5 years.

The issue any Yankee fan or front office executive must face is a simple trade-off: Do you think the alleged mistakes you list above, plus presumably others you have queued up, eclipse his 4 WS championships. Would you give back those rings for the POSSIBILITY that different decisions in the situations above would result in advancing further in the playoffs in those respective years? You’d have to be a retard if you would because your Monday AM QB analysis wouldn’t guarantee a single thing.

I'll put it to you straight up:

If not Torre then who?

What manager that is currently NOT UNDER CONTRACT (and not retired) would come in and do a better job? And if you say Sweet Lou, I’ll just refer you to his previous record as a NYY manager.

The sad thing is that these Yankee-haters are jerking your chain. They’d have Torre manage their team in a heartbeat.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:59 pm

I am for Torre returning. I never said I wasn't. I just had to put his stewardship over the past 3 or 4 years in its proper context.

He made some highly arguable calls during the good years too...like using an obviously shot Cone in relief against Piazza in the 2000 WS. His moves worked out then so you can't really argue the wisdom of it.

The bottom line though is had he not amassed a great record from 1996-2001, what he did last season in 2004 in the ALCS would normally have gotten a manager canned. And I doubt anyone really wants to argue the opposite. Had for instance what happened in 2004 been done by a Joe Giradi in his first year of managing and not Joe Torre with 4 WS and 6 pennants to his record, Giradi would have been canned and just about every Yankee fan would have been asking for his head on a platter.

The fact is Torre does an excellent job off the field, managing Ggeorge BS and player/media relations well. That is no easy thing to do. If you are going to argue that his on-field managing is good, esp. over the past 3 or 4 years, I think it is a reach. Every manager makes thousands of decisions...so what? Mr. Torre is paid to get them right and win. I blame him for the 2003 WS loss and I know I have heard Michael Kaye and other talk show hosts say the same thing. I blame him directly for the ALCS loss in 2004. I give him credit for getting as far as he did this year with that crummy staff, but at the same time deduct some points for his inane moves like using Embree way too much and other stupid moves.


Torre is not the problem with the Yankees....he is an asset overall. The problem lies in the front office in both TB and NY and in the coaching/scouting staff. The TB faction and Cashman need to be canned....every last one of them. So did Stottlemeyer and most of the minor league development staff.
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