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The Curse of Jeters Contract

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Postby blankman » Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:01 am

Lofunzo wrote:I don't want to get into everything here because I don't have that much time but I wanted to respond to this part:

DK wrote:I'm not saying that they would have them at that price, but signing Jeter for $19 million a year is not going to benefit them as much as if they had signed him for something closer to his market value. Without Jeter and his contract, they could have gone after David Eckstein this year, who signed for 2.3 million. That's a lot of economic flexibility.


I'm going to argue that, at the time, it was market value. You had A-Rod setting the market a few months earlier in a time of economic foolishness in baseball. No player was worth that much but he got it when Hicks basically bid against himself for A-Rod. He was the best player in the game but along came Jeter's negotiations. On 1 hand, we had a super-talented player who had never won a thing. On the other hand, we had the lesser-talented Jeter who was still great but not as great. That said, he was the unofficial captain of the team and had led them to 4 championships in 5 years. I will never say that any player is worth that much money but, if anyone was, it was Jeter at the time. He got lucky with the timing of A-Rod's contract as well as signing before the economics of the game changed. We can't forget that.


Absolutely, yet here DK is making the outlandish assumption that the market is the same now as it was when Jeter signed. He signed for market price at the time; things have changed big time, yet he still acts as if they could have signed an Eckstein for $2M then.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:12 am

eftda wrote:
lesgrant wrote:Secondly, you bring up Texas when any moron knows that Dallas is about football, not baseball. Always has been, always will be. Babe Ruth couldn’t draw baseball fans there on a consistent basis.


When did Ruth play for Texas? :-?


Im surprised you used the word moron becuase the Cowboys made Dallas into a football city, but Texas is a state and Dallas is a city.
:-°

lesgrant wrote:I hope you’re not foolish enough to assert that there are no financial benefits to having marquis players on a team. If so, then why is it that the Yankees usually lead the league in road attendance? (and don’t say ‘because they are a winning team’ when winning could be attributed to marquis talent) Why is it that the length of the Yankee season, over the past three years, keeps getting shorter and shorter, with them winning fewer regular season games each year, while their total attendance increased each year? Where’s the new stadium? How does your source address that issue? Who was that source again?


The Yankees are a brand name. You go to the store and see a nike shoe for 20 bucks and the same Rebok shoe for 20 bucks. Which one will you get? Nike, but becuase of the brand name. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, etc... they all made that name bigger than life in New York and other cities want to see why. If you move to another state and you have a child, which team will you take them to? Home team vs. the White Sox or Home team vs. the Yankees. Doesn't matter if the Yankees are 0-161, you still go see them becuase there is history behind that name.


Did I say Ruth played for Texas? 'Could' and 'did' are two different words.

And why are they a brand name?...Because of the star players you mentioned. Thank you for illustrating my point.

Edit: I wanted to clarify for the NL fans that the TEXAS Rangers play in the Dallas market.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:00 am

DK,

In general, when you cite a paper as a source, you don't cite the abstract. That is not a source of anything. That's just a thesis. Do you know what a thesis is? It isn't a fact. So stop pounding your chest like you are quoting FACTS when you aren't. Once again, it's the Cliff Notes complex. Have you ever actually read that paper?

You are nitpicking, like every Yankee-hater does, when you say, AFTER THE FACT, that the Yankees could have gone after Eckstein or the like.

“The Yankees lead the league in road attendance (I'm taking your word for this one) because they're the most popular team in the world. By far. No contest. Nothing sells like the Yankees in this day and age.”

But why is it that they sell? Is it because they win? You never addressed the 3 year Yankee trend I brought up. You’re not going to tell me the AL RECORD 4 million plus that the Yanks drew is due to a normal attendance inflation, are you? Sorry. A-rod and Randy Johnson have something to do with that, on top of Sheffield, Jeter, and Matsui.

And Pedro didn’t win 20 plus games for you this year. He is not the Cy Young pitcher he used to be. Pedro is Pedro. He was acquired to bring attention to the Mets and he has. The Yankee power is due to their marquis players. Do you think people buy tickets in RECORD AMOUNTS to see Cano, Wang, and Small as opposed to A-rod, Jeter, Sheffield, Johnson, Mussina, Matsui, etc. You’re off the map with that one.

And you’re the one who started a personal attack on me that a mod had to edit. So don’t bring this ‘who, me?’ bs to the table. Call me crazy but I don’t think I would hang out with you in any social setting whatsoever. (partly because you can’t own up to anything) And I don’t think people observing the things you and I have to say to one another would conclude that we would. You’re not of victim of anything but your own delusions so come back to reality. I don’t like you and I know you don’t like me. Don’t pretend otherwise. It’s a really weak and fake thing to do.

As for your history of Yankee bashing, you really need to look in the mirror. In my last post I referred to ALL of your posts on this board, not just this thread. When you put it all together, it’s a very negative picture that you paint of the Yankees in general. And it’s all supported by nitpicky knocks that you do not apply to other teams. You spent several pages a while back arguing how Jeter should move from SS to 3B when A-rod was acquired. Remember that? And the very next season, Jeter wins a GG. (Oh yeah, you don’t think GGs are of any significance or hold any value – or is it just when players you don’t respect win them?) You saying you like Jeter is like GW Bush saying he likes Black people. Any clod can say it when pressed, but when you look at your history in a big picture context, it just isn’t so.

If I saw just as many nitpicky posts about the Red Sox or the Indians as I do from you regarding the Yankees, I wouldn’t see it as an issue. And that imbalance is what siphons credibility from your posts. You are not objective, but yet you swear you are. There is a huge disconnect between how you perceive yourself and what you’re actually doing.

BTW: I brought up Reyes, not to bash the Mets, but because he is a young player, on the rise, playing in the SAME MARKET.
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Postby RAmst23 » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:57 am

Man, mental note to never read lesgrant's post and hope that any relevant or objective information is contained within. Nice way to hijack a fun thread guys. Not gonna pay any attention to this thread from now on.

Interesting notes on Jeter, Hootie. I think it's a typical media exaggeration to call a player "clutch" from a couple of good ABs in the postseason. My favorite is hearing that a terrible season "can be ignored from one good post-season AB." Um, no it can't, the guy still had a crap season.
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Postby soxwillchoke » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:22 am

Some observations from a longtime lurker:

lesgrant DOES like to read his own words. However he makes some valid points which DK skipped over to get to the catty stuff like trying to be friends when they clearly aren’t:

DK, I don’t know how old you are or what your level of education is, although I think it’s beyond high school. If you have attended college then you should definitely know that an abstract is not a valid source to reference. When you do a research paper you must use the actual paper as a reference, not the abstract. The abstract is a thesis which only proves that there is one other person on the planet that agrees with you. You did not address lesgrat’s questions about playing surface and all of the other elements to that formula. I would add that I have problems with the author’s definition of a star player. The author says it’s Cy Young, MVP, then, as an afterthought All-Star appearances. It would seem, for the purposes of this discussion, that starting All-Star appearances should carry the most weight since they are voted in by the fans who pay to see the games as opposed to the media (MVP, Cy Young) who are not paying customers of MLB. Moreover, in the last paragraph the author lists factors which influence attendance. Payroll is second. But it doesn’t state HOW the payroll size affects attendance – or if it’s size at all. My ultimate point about this is that since we don’t have the article we can’t look at the specifics as they apply to this discussion. For all we know, the data could support lesgrant more than DK. And even more importantly, DK, YOU can’t answer specific questions about the article because you don’t have it. There’s the data, then there’s the conclusion drawn from the data. One without the other, in any case, is worthless. Stop claiming to be more factual than thou, because you aren’t. The Honest Iago ref. fits you perfectly. Your facts should speak for themselves. If you have to proclaim how factual and objective you are, you probably are neither.

Also, the originator of this thread claims it was done in “fun”. But I don’t see this type of “fun” evenly distributed in this forum. People get the impression that it’s Spanky-bashing because I don’t see this type of “fun” had as much with other teams. Maybe it’s because there are more Yankee fans here than any other team. Even so, this type of “fun” was meant to provoke, so don’t get ruffled because someone like lesgrant is obnoxious in his response. You “fun” seekers brought it upon yourselves.

I hate the Yankees. At least I can admit it and not waste everyone’s time with facts that aren’t really facts to come to conclusions that aren’t supported by these so-called facts, and then turn around and flame Yankee fans because they get pissed while proclaiming my objectivity from a victim’s standpoint. I’ve never known a sports fan or journalist to be “objective” because they’re all human beings.

I’m assuming most here are adults (in pure age, not maturity level) here, but maybe that’s not an appropriate assumption.

There. I’ve made my post for this fiscal quarter.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:31 am

RAmst23 wrote:Man, mental note to never read lesgrant's post and hope that any relevant or objective information is contained within. Nice way to hijack a fun thread guys. Not gonna pay any attention to this thread from now on.

Interesting notes on Jeter, Hootie. I think it's a typical media exaggeration to call a player "clutch" from a couple of good ABs in the postseason. My favorite is hearing that a terrible season "can be ignored from one good post-season AB." Um, no it can't, the guy still had a crap season.


It’s interesting that some people find bashing Jeter to be “fun”, but yet they have the balls to talk about relevancy and objectivity.

How can you say that garbage with a straight face?

Does your post contribute anything other than stating that I’m ruining your fun? I’m more than happy to ruin your “fun” if it’s about bashing Yankees. Get used to it, because you won’t be having that kind of fun around me.
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Postby eftda » Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:10 pm

lesgrant wrote:
eftda wrote:
lesgrant wrote:Secondly, you bring up Texas when any moron knows that Dallas is about football, not baseball. Always has been, always will be. Babe Ruth couldn’t draw baseball fans there on a consistent basis.


When did Ruth play for Texas? :-?


Im surprised you used the word moron becuase the Cowboys made Dallas into a football city, but Texas is a state and Dallas is a city.
:-°

lesgrant wrote:I hope you’re not foolish enough to assert that there are no financial benefits to having marquis players on a team. If so, then why is it that the Yankees usually lead the league in road attendance? (and don’t say ‘because they are a winning team’ when winning could be attributed to marquis talent) Why is it that the length of the Yankee season, over the past three years, keeps getting shorter and shorter, with them winning fewer regular season games each year, while their total attendance increased each year? Where’s the new stadium? How does your source address that issue? Who was that source again?


The Yankees are a brand name. You go to the store and see a nike shoe for 20 bucks and the same Rebok shoe for 20 bucks. Which one will you get? Nike, but becuase of the brand name. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, etc... they all made that name bigger than life in New York and other cities want to see why. If you move to another state and you have a child, which team will you take them to? Home team vs. the White Sox or Home team vs. the Yankees. Doesn't matter if the Yankees are 0-161, you still go see them becuase there is history behind that name.


Did I say Ruth played for Texas? 'Could' and 'did' are two different words.

And why are they a brand name?...Because of the star players you mentioned. Thank you for illustrating my point.

Edit: I wanted to clarify for the NL fans that the TEXAS Rangers play in the Dallas market.


Did you read my post at all? I said they were a brand name because of their past. I would still go see the Yankees play if they were the worst team in baseball. When you said "Ruth couldn't", you implied that he played in texas at one time or more times and couldn't draw fans to the stadium. Don't play words games if you don't know how. BTW, are you calling me a "NL Fan" or making a call out to all "NL only Fans"? Either way it was a rude.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:09 pm

eftda wrote:
lesgrant wrote:
eftda wrote:
lesgrant wrote:Secondly, you bring up Texas when any moron knows that Dallas is about football, not baseball. Always has been, always will be. Babe Ruth couldn’t draw baseball fans there on a consistent basis.


When did Ruth play for Texas? :-?


Im surprised you used the word moron becuase the Cowboys made Dallas into a football city, but Texas is a state and Dallas is a city.
:-°

lesgrant wrote:I hope you’re not foolish enough to assert that there are no financial benefits to having marquis players on a team. If so, then why is it that the Yankees usually lead the league in road attendance? (and don’t say ‘because they are a winning team’ when winning could be attributed to marquis talent) Why is it that the length of the Yankee season, over the past three years, keeps getting shorter and shorter, with them winning fewer regular season games each year, while their total attendance increased each year? Where’s the new stadium? How does your source address that issue? Who was that source again?


The Yankees are a brand name. You go to the store and see a nike shoe for 20 bucks and the same Rebok shoe for 20 bucks. Which one will you get? Nike, but becuase of the brand name. Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, etc... they all made that name bigger than life in New York and other cities want to see why. If you move to another state and you have a child, which team will you take them to? Home team vs. the White Sox or Home team vs. the Yankees. Doesn't matter if the Yankees are 0-161, you still go see them becuase there is history behind that name.


Did I say Ruth played for Texas? 'Could' and 'did' are two different words.

And why are they a brand name?...Because of the star players you mentioned. Thank you for illustrating my point.

Edit: I wanted to clarify for the NL fans that the TEXAS Rangers play in the Dallas market.


Did you read my post at all? I said they were a brand name because of their past. I would still go see the Yankees play if they were the worst team in baseball. When you said "Ruth couldn't", you implied that he played in texas at one time or more times and couldn't draw fans to the stadium. Don't play words games if you don't know how. BTW, are you calling me a "NL Fan" or making a call out to all "NL only Fans"? Either way it was a rude.


How is it rude to clarify for National League fans that the Texas Rangers play in Dallas? Many fans are unfamiliar with teams from the other league. Obviously, you were clueless to that fact, especially given the emot that followed your point (talk about rude – especially when you don’t know what you’re talking about). And I have no idea what you mean by “NL only”, other than it being a classification for the scope of a fantasy league.

The word ‘could’ or ‘couldn’t’ is of the conditional tense, implying IF. Babe Ruth couldn’t draw fans to the park (if he played in Texas). I’ve been a Yankee fan my entire life and I know, like everyone else in the baseball universe, that Babe Ruth never played for the Rangers - especially given that the Rangers didn’t even exist when the Babe played. Come on.

The Yankees past is the same as their present, one filled with stars. That’s what has built the brand and what continues to drive it. You surely can’t be so dense as to not understand that notion.

Moreover, you can’t be seriously saying that you go to Yankee games because Mickey Mantle et al., dead guys you’ve never seen play, played for them before you were born? Are you kidding me?
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Postby rob0417 » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:14 pm

Wow. where did all this come from. I haven't checked this thread in a whille and was shocked to see the tangent this went off on.

I thought it was just an interested little tidbit that didn't mean anything. I didn't think Yankee fans would take such offensive to it.

To me is Jeter vastly overpaid, given current market conditions. Yes. Was he at the time he signed the contract. Based on actual on field production. Yes. But Jeter brings a lot more to the table than just that. He is the face of the team and does a lot of little things really well. He is worth a lot more to the Yankees than anyother team, because of all this. Since players salary doesn't mean anything to Steinbrener, the 19 million is really relevant to me. You can't compare the highest paid players to the best players, because they very rarly coincide.

I am tired of hearing that the Yankees drew 4 million fans this year. Good for them, but you can't compare total attendance across ballparks because the seating is different. I don't know how many people Yankee stadium holds. But I know for the Mets to do it they would need to have a close to 90% occupancy rate. I don't know what the Yankees occupancy rate was but if it was close to that than I would be really impressed, and that would mean a lot more than simple drawing 4 million fans.
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Postby lesgrant » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:27 pm

rob0417 wrote:Wow. where did all this come from. I haven't checked this thread in a whille and was shocked to see the tangent this went off on.

I thought it was just an interested little tidbit that didn't mean anything. I didn't think Yankee fans would take such offensive to it.

To me is Jeter vastly overpaid, given current market conditions. Yes. Was he at the time he signed the contract. Based on actual on field production. Yes. But Jeter brings a lot more to the table than just that. He is the face of the team and does a lot of little things really well. He is worth a lot more to the Yankees than anyother team, because of all this. Since players salary doesn't mean anything to Steinbrener, the 19 million is really relevant to me. You can't compare the highest paid players to the best players, because they very rarly coincide.

I am tired of hearing that the Yankees drew 4 million fans this year. Good for them, but you can't compare total attendance across ballparks because the seating is different. I don't know how many people Yankee stadium holds. But I know for the Mets to do it they would need to have a close to 90% occupancy rate. I don't know what the Yankees occupancy rate was but if it was close to that than I would be really impressed, and that would mean a lot more than simple drawing 4 million fans.


You should be impressed:

Shea Stadium capacity 55,601
Yankee Stadium capacity 57,545
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