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Postby JTWood » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:46 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:The entire rest of the offense is a bunch of bit players, a few of whom MIGHT top out as average major leaguers.

That's what they said about Abraham Nunez, and look what he did in almost a full season for the Cardinals this year. I think they probably have some undiscovered talent that's just waiting for a good manager to coax it out of them.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:08 pm

JTWood wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:The entire rest of the offense is a bunch of bit players, a few of whom MIGHT top out as average major leaguers.

That's what they said about Abraham Nunez, and look what he did in almost a full season for the Cardinals this year. I think they probably have some undiscovered talent that's just waiting for a good manager to coax it out of them.


Look what Abraham Freakin' Nunez did? Are you kidding me??

He has a 704 OPS! He slugged .361.
He ranked 13th out of 3b with 250+ PAs; in other words, he was almost the worst starting 3B in the league, saved from that fate by the craptastic triumvirate of Lowell, Bell, and Alfonzo

In other words, HE SUCKED!

Nunez IS topping out as a slightly below average major league player. He's a perfect example of the kind of players the Pirates have. Thanks for proving my point.
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Postby JTWood » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:16 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
JTWood wrote:
GotowarMissAgnes wrote:The entire rest of the offense is a bunch of bit players, a few of whom MIGHT top out as average major leaguers.

That's what they said about Abraham Nunez, and look what he did in almost a full season for the Cardinals this year. I think they probably have some undiscovered talent that's just waiting for a good manager to coax it out of them.


Look what Abraham Freakin' Nunez did? Are you kidding me??

He has a 704 OPS! He slugged .361.
He ranked 13th out of 3b with 250+ PAs; in other words, he was almost the worst starting 3B in the league, saved from that fate by the craptastic triumvirate of Lowell, Bell, and Alfonzo

In other words, HE SUCKED!

Nunez IS topping out as a slightly below average major league player. He's a perfect example of the kind of players the Pirates have. Thanks for proving my point.

He batted right under .300 for nearly an entire season, and he played an excellent 3B this year - let alone other positions. That's team leadership, and those sorts of things can't be translated into stats.

Now, I didn't say that Nunez was going to be a .330/30/120 guy, but his everyday level of play is the sort of thing a beleaguered franchise like the Pirates needs to get it turned around. The fact that he wasn't doing it while he was there speaks volumes about the management.
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Postby Mercer Boy » Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:40 am

Man...I wish football season wasn't going on right now so I could have entered this "debate." :-/

OK, so from what I'm reading, this Tracy guy isn't all that bad. Of course, all that I read from the Pirates' message boards is this:

1) Tracy was hired because Dave Littlefield used to have him as a manager on other teams (Expos I think). Macha didn't even get a fair chance to get the job because of this. People think that since this is a "do or die" year for DL that he went with the guy he trusted.

2) Tracy is a manager who likes to play "small ball" and is big on veterans. Unfortuantely, the latter is something that I don't want to venture into considering the Pirates have been doing it for 8+ years...it obviously hasn't worked. Other than Bay, no one on this team runs, and when they do, they normally are caught stealing or are tagged out on a stupid baserunning error.

It's probably a product of the fans being very bitter over the last 13 years, but they probably know more than me. I know nothing of Tracy's ability other than he had a winning record in LA for 4 of 5 years. That's OK by me. Another plus is that he wasn't brought up in this organization that has only known losing for over a decade. Maybe a new attitude will help things.

What WittyC said is pretty much dead on. There's no chance the Pirates contend this year, especially with the teams in our division.

All I'm looking for is constant competent play and improvement of the young players. We will still need a RF and 3B most likely, though. Where do they come from? It's going to take a heck of a lot for any player that is on a winning team to come to Pittsburgh to play...or the Pirates will have to trade away quite a few of their young arms to bring them in.

JTWood wrote:They do have the talent to be a .500+ team in the next two years, but ownership needs to commit to a few players to make that happen. Like I said above, they are a good team as long as the ownership doesn't screw them over.


McClatchy says that the payroll will increase 30% this year...of course, this is owner-speak. That essentially means that instead of spending $38 million, we're going to spend about $50 million. Wow, that still puts us near the bottom of the ladder in team spending.

There are some Pittsburgh fans blaming the Nuttings & McClatchy for creating our problems. Their contention is that the owners field a cruddy team but offer little trinkets and all-star game perks to get people into the stadium, and the fans keep buying it. In these fans' view, the owners are just trying to make money and aren't trying to win. 1.8 million fans attended home games this year. That's a lot of people coming to see a team that lost 95 games. Personally, I think we just have a lot of loyal fans that like to watch baseball, and we had some new players that look promising enough for people to watch.

We need to lock Bay, Perez (hold out hope), and Duke down for a long time, and it would be pretty smart to get rid of guys like Mark Redman and Wells that are obvious money-eaters. Redman was crap after the first 10 games, and Wells is just another one of those guys that we turn into slop that will inevitably do better somewhere else.

I am still pretty excited to see these younger players, and I would really like to see them improve under Tracy. Hopefully he can do that for us since it was obvious that it wasn't going to happen after the first few years of Lloyd.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:33 am

JTWood wrote:He batted right under .300 for nearly an entire season, and he played an excellent 3B this year - let alone other positions. That's team leadership, and those sorts of things can't be translated into stats.

Now, I didn't say that Nunez was going to be a .330/30/120 guy, but his everyday level of play is the sort of thing a beleaguered franchise like the Pirates needs to get it turned around. The fact that he wasn't doing it while he was there speaks volumes about the management.


Which is why batting average is a pretty useless statistic for evaluating players. His OBP is average and he has no power at all. Add it all up and you get a below average player. He'll lead you team all right...right into last place. If you can't perform on the field, all the leadership in the world gets you nothing.

The Pirates had 12 everyday players who hit as well or better than Nunez. Where did it get them? His everyday level of player is NOT what a team needs, because all it will get them is a losing record. There is NO difference between Nunez' level of play this year and his years with the Pirates, except for a handful of extra lucky singles this year.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Thu Oct 13, 2005 8:44 am

Mercer Boy wrote:There are some Pittsburgh fans blaming the Nuttings & McClatchy for creating our problems. Their contention is that the owners field a cruddy team but offer little trinkets and all-star game perks to get people into the stadium, and the fans keep buying it. In these fans' view, the owners are just trying to make money and aren't trying to win. 1.8 million fans attended home games this year. That's a lot of people coming to see a team that lost 95 games. Personally, I think we just have a lot of loyal fans that like to watch baseball, and we had some new players that look promising enough for people to watch.
That 1.8 million home attendance ranks 28th in baseball. If the owners are just trying to make money they are doing a horrible job. The team was mis-mangaged for so many years that the fans aren't going to come out to see promising young players or a great stadium. Winning solves the attendance problem.
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