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What do you guys think of Holds as a scoring stat?

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Postby Lofunzo » Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:54 am

I don't usually use it but it is growing on me. It adds value to players that normally wouldn't be drafted. Just like SHP in hockey.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:24 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:I've never been in a league that has used them. I just can't get past the fact they you don't need to record and out to get a hold.


It's not true. You do need to record an out to get a hold under the definition that is in use. There was an early definition that permitted a hold with no out, but that's no longer used.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 09, 2005 1:29 pm

RAmst23 wrote:I'm not a fan of the holds. Leagues seem to use them just to make MRs valueable, which is kinda of a dumb reason IMO.


I don't think it's a dumb reason at all, because middle relievers are far, far more valuable in real baseball than most fantasy scoring systems give them credit for. And that's the main reason I like holds...because it makes fantasy BB more like the real game.

If you look at ANY decent measure of the contributions relief pitchers make to a a team's overall defense, you'l find that half or more of the top ranked relief pitchers are MRs. MRs generally come in with men on base in close games. As a result, the outs they get are often much more important than the outrs the closer gets, especially those closers that get a lot of cheap 2-3 run saves.

Another reason I like holds is because it rewards managers sho stay active. You can be very competitive in holds if you pay attention and stay alert to waivers. Anything that rewards managers who do that is something that's good for your league.
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Postby Y`s Guy » Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:49 pm

I like the idea of trying to utilize every position in baseball. And that goes for the MR guy. So HOLDS is interesting. We have counted them for the last three seasons. A minority of our owners do not like the cat.

I despise the category myself.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Sun Oct 09, 2005 3:56 pm

IMO, Holds is one dumb category to score on and you should discourage using it at all costs. I have only played with it in the one H2H league I play (all my others are Roto). Basically, you can completely ignore the category in the draft...COMPLETELY. It is not worth even wasting a roster spot on early on. Who the holds leaders are can change like the wind year to year. And there are enough solid holds guys on the wire in April to allow you to compete in the catgeory without even using a draft choice on.

Basically, the only time I carry a holds guy on my roster is when I have an open slot and figure I can steal a point from my opponent for the week. I rather take saves and gather SPs for Ws and Ks and let my oppponent waste 2 or 3 roster slots trying to capture a few holds. It really is one dumb category too since even in the last week of the playoffs, guys like Cliff Polite were still on the wire in my league.

I used to try draft the Gordons...simply is not worth it. You can use potential closers in waiting (and we saw a lot of those this year pan out) to gather holds while speculating on saves. Guys like Farnsworth and Reitsma and Rodney worked out pretty well in that regard.
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Postby GotowarMissAgnes » Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:29 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:IMO, Holds is one dumb category to score on and you should discourage using it at all costs. I have only played with it in the one H2H league I play (all my others are Roto). Basically, you can completely ignore the category in the draft...COMPLETELY. It is not worth even wasting a roster spot on early on. Who the holds leaders are can change like the wind year to year. And there are enough solid holds guys on the wire in April to allow you to compete in the catgeory without even using a draft choice on.

Basically, the only time I carry a holds guy on my roster is when I have an open slot and figure I can steal a point from my opponent for the week. I rather take saves and gather SPs for Ws and Ks and let my oppponent waste 2 or 3 roster slots trying to capture a few holds. It really is one dumb category too since even in the last week of the playoffs, guys like Cliff Polite were still on the wire in my league.

I used to try draft the Gordons...simply is not worth it. You can use potential closers in waiting (and we saw a lot of those this year pan out) to gather holds while speculating on saves. Guys like Farnsworth and Reitsma and Rodney worked out pretty well in that regard.


From the top ten saves leaders this year, only 3 names repeated in the top ten from last year.
From the top ten leaders in wins in this year, only two of the names were repeats from the prior year.
From the top ten leaders in holds, two names were repeats from last year.

Holds are no more or less variable than other stats that are highly dependent on team performance and manager decision, like wins and saves.

In a league where other good players understand that MRs provide value not only in their holds, but in their low ERA and WHIP, potential for saves, and vulture wins, and the fact that good ones get more K's per 9 than many good starters, you have to not only draft well, but be active on waivers. Just as with saves, it's difficult to compete in holds if you don't have at least on quality closer. Sure, you can pick up waiver guys and increase your holds, but their impact on WHIP and ERA has a definite cost.

And the fact that Politte was available clearly shows me that owners in your league weren't on the ball. My league has used holds in roto for several years and he never hit the waiver wire all year.
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Postby Tavish » Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:08 pm

GotowarMissAgnes wrote:
Pogotheostrich wrote:I've never been in a league that has used them. I just can't get past the fact they you don't need to record and out to get a hold.


It's not true. You do need to record an out to get a hold under the definition that is in use. There was an early definition that permitted a hold with no out, but that's no longer used.


Thats not exactly true either. There are two definitions for a hold, one used by STATS Inc and one by Sportsticker, both are still active definitions. It completely depends on which reporting service your league gets its stats from. Most services use STATs Inc which has the one out stipulation (Yahoo uses STATs Inc for their Hold statistic). I don't recall if USA Today (which uses SportsTicker and the no out guideline) ever did get approval from the MLB to be a fantasy service provider.
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Postby bigh0rt » Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:39 pm

I enjoy them because as has been stated, it's something that must be considered when actually managing, adding a tad bit of realism to the game. That being said, I haven't played with them in several years. :-)
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Postby WittyC » Mon Oct 10, 2005 2:45 am

I played in a roto league this year that substituted holds for WHIP, and it was my first experience with the category.

Personally, I loved it (funny, since I won the category and the league). I think the fact that it isn't a "traditional" category is the only thing that scares people away from using it. As has been mentioned above, it's as legit a cat as wins and saves, which can both award players for very little contribution (i.e. -- blow a save and get a win).

Also, I was happy to see WHIP go out the window... it's generally linked to ERA anyways, plus it balanced the % catagories between hitting and pitching.
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Postby Drunken Rhino » Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:35 pm

I like the category.

It allowed me to use all my innings. Kept me from spot starting crappy starters that don't belong on fantasy teams. Helped me place 2nd in WHIP & ERA, 1st in Ks and 1st in Ws. Guys like Shields, Qualls and Ugie were great for me.

I think adds something unique to most leagues.
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