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Why I now hate Head to Head

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Postby Sultans of Squat » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:12 pm

rainman23 wrote:Fair enough. Not surprisingly, I disagree with you in a number of ways. And feel like I've been misinterpreted in even more. Damned English language!


That's probably one thing we can both agree on. :D

If you're talking players who are remotely sophisticated, they'll know the value of that regular season championship. They'll know that the best team generally comes out on top at the end of a long season. And they'll know that a loss in a short series doesn't change that. And that no fantasy owner yet has picked up a bat, so the idea of "choking" is kind of ridiculous.


LOL. Sophistication and feelings are not mutually exclusive. We're not all merely walking machines w/ no feelings afterall. :D In any case, if we're that sophisticated, then why bother w/ the playoffs? I believe that's what some of us are saying. And if we don't have much feelings, then why would we be so passionate about baseball or FBB?

Huh? What planet do you live on? Yes, *some* sports are organized to have some aspects of what you suggest, but AFAIK, none of them value a regular season "championship" higher than playoffs championship, if they value the regular season at all relative to the playoffs.


If that's true, I think it's an argument for playoffs, not against them. If the world in general agrees that the playoff winner is the more important one.


Huh? So in all your sophistication, you will follow along just because the world (or rather the large majority of the world to be more precise) cares more about the playoff winner?

At least in H2H, these things aren't impacting what you view as the all-important regular season title. You could argue that the H2H regular season ends when it ought to. Before garbage time kicks in.


Fair enough. However, I didn't know anyone played H2H w/out playoffs. If that's case, you have a good point there.

In Roto, in those years when September actually matters, you've got this kind of crap helping to decide the season title.


True enough, but you won't be seeing the 6th place team beating the 1st place team because of that kind of crap since the 6th place team would never(?) be close enough for that.

As I hinted before, my main problem is w/ the degree to which things go askew w/ H2H playoffs, not that there should be zero luck involved. For instance, I would probably be ok w/ a simple league champ matchup between 2 division winners in a 12-team league (as I suggested in my last post). But I must still argue that H2H only works better than Roto if you use a good points system, instead of roto-type cats. And honestly, I'm actually not that big a fan of standard Roto either and would much prefer a good points system in general.

Money is a convenient measuring stick for the things that your league values. And it will certainly help reinforce those values. If 100% of your prize money goes to the regular season champ, and nothing to the playoff winner, I can guarantee you that's going to be where the "bragging" rights lie.


Ok, I see what you mean although I have never seen anyone suggest that's why money is involved. I only ever hear about the other less noble reasons for involving money.

And, by the way, if "bragging" is what you care about with this sport, I wonder if you get it.


LOL. No, I'm actually not quite that interested in "bragging". However, that won't stop everyone else from doing it. ;-) And no matter how sophisticated I'd like to think of myself, I'm only human and have enough feelings to make such things an issue to some degree. !+)
Last edited by Sultans of Squat on Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sultans of Squat » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:17 pm

StlSluggers wrote:Luck does impact both equally. The people who believe otherwise are just focusing on the size of the incremental impact. If one set of data has a low standard deviation and another has a high, it does not mean that they must have different means.

What I mean is that the impact of luck in H2H (which ever kind) is more volatile, but it evens out in the long-term so that it resembles roto. Of course, I'm referring to regular-season stats here. In a playoff format, they are not comparable.


Ah! I see. I assumed you were talking about the playoffs also, which was where most of the complaints come from.
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Postby Fpower » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:28 pm

Sorry if it's already been said, but I could only bring myself to read three pages or so of this discussion.

H2H is nice in that if your 1st round draft pick goes down for most of the season, you think "well, it'll be all right if I can just get him back for the playoffs".

In roto, you think to yourself, "I'm @#$!"
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Postby StlSluggers » Mon Sep 19, 2005 7:30 pm

Sultans of Squat wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:Luck does impact both equally. The people who believe otherwise are just focusing on the size of the incremental impact. If one set of data has a low standard deviation and another has a high, it does not mean that they must have different means.

What I mean is that the impact of luck in H2H (which ever kind) is more volatile, but it evens out in the long-term so that it resembles roto. Of course, I'm referring to regular-season stats here. In a playoff format, they are not comparable.


Ah! I see. I assumed you were talking about the playoffs also, which was where most of the complaints come from.

Glad we're on the same page, and as I've stated before, the easiest way to offset this volatility in the playoffs is the double the length of each round to two weeks (assuming one week standard, here). Another option is to allow more frequent lineup changes or substitutions, if you're not already in a daily lineup league.
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Postby Lofunzo » Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:21 pm

gogogadget wrote:
How many times have the Braves had the best record in baseball and not won the World Series? You think they should say they hate the format that baseball uses because they had the best record in baseball during the regular season so many years but didn't win the World Series because they had a "bad week"? The expression "On paper they have a better team" comes to mind. Another is " Thats why they play the games." H2h is most like real baseball because on paper a team might look like the champions(Yankees 05) but get beat down by a much lesser team( TampaBay 05) Thats why H2h is so much more fun to me.


very good points..and I agree with you totally.


Fair point but save that for another argument. Not really applicable here, at least from my point of view.
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Postby bleach168 » Mon Sep 19, 2005 9:34 pm

Everyone has a different opinion of "fun" so I won't get into that.

The argument that h2h is more realistic isn't convincing because the roto lovers don't care about what system is more realistic. They only care about what system best calculates the smartest fantasy manager.

As for luck, h2h is more prone to wild deviations. Sure, over the long term it all evens out but you're talking maybe a lifetime of fantasy baseball there.

H2h is more like poker. For any single hand, 90% of the outcome depends on the cards you get delt. It takes many games for the good poker players separate themselves from the bad ones. For h2h, that means many years.

Roto is more like chess. The good players will finish in the top 3 year in and year out with usually the best player on top.
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Postby Oliver Perez » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:11 am

I'll agree with H2H hatred from now on.

I was knocked off by a 5th seed, and i was the 1st seed. :-t
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Postby bd3521 » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:18 am

I was #1-#3 seed in nine (10 team leagues)
I lost all the games in the first round

H2H BLOWS
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Postby Lofunzo » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:29 am

All things equal, I don't mind the upset angle in H2H. That's cool. It's the extra variables that I don't care for.
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Postby Madison » Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:52 am

StlSluggers wrote:Luck does impact both equally. The people who believe otherwise are just focusing on the size of the incremental impact.


Disagree.

Biggest reason.......You can dominate any catagory, and I do mean any catagory in H2H for a full year, then with one bad week, end up losing.

Look at it this way:

Standard 5X5 Roto league:

You've got a team average of .292 (which is good for a .04 point lead), 220 home runs (up by 24), 787 runs (up by 38), 792 rbi (up by 29), 143 steals (up by 26).

Ok? Now your offense is terrible for one week and you record numbers of:

.188 avg, 20 runs, 20 rbi, 3 homers, 0 steals.

Are you going to lose your hold of first in any of those catagories? Maybe 1, two at the very most and it would take an incredibly hot week from someone to do it.

In a H2H league, you drop all 5 cats for the week with those numbers, and now have to sweep the pitching cats or your season is done. Why? Because H2H doesn't care how dominant you've been all season. All of that is completely wiped away for the playoffs, so 1 lucky week (or unlucky, however you would like to look at it) and your season is over, even though you dominated from day 1. That unlucky week destroyed your season much, much worse in H2H than it ever could in Roto, so to answer the statement, luck does not affect both games equally.
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