Ethics and Psychology - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Ethics and Psychology

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby Art Vandelay » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:48 pm

josebach wrote:Do you honestly think rule#1 is designed to allow teams to pick up players and immediately drop them so that they are on waivers and unavailable for other teams to pick up? Because it helps your standings in the league? That was it's intention?

Scary.


No. What I'm saying is that I have no idea how it was "designed" and neither does anyone who didn't design it. It is open for interpretation just like almost every other rule known to man. I have no way to infer intent on this...I literally have no way of knowing what the guy who wrote these rules indended for them. I would not use this method, but if someone used it against me I would not complain.

Also, if, as I have argued, the sole purpose of a move is to improve standing and not to hamper play, then rule four isn't broken anyway.
Art Vandelay
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy ExpertPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5265
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby josebach » Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:57 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:I would not use this method, but if someone used it against me I would not complain.


So you're saying if your shortstop got hurt and the guy you were playing against in the upcoming week found out about it before you did and picked up every available shortstop and dropped them so that they were on waivers on Sunday night when your line-up deadline was due... that you wouldn't complain?

Yeah, ok. ;-D

No, you're right, that's not against the rules. ;-D
josebach
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2036
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Tallahassee

Postby Art Vandelay » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:01 pm

josebach wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:I would not use this method, but if someone used it against me I would not complain.


So you're saying if your shortstop got hurt and the guy you were playing against in the upcoming week found out about it before you did and picked up every available shortstop and dropped them so that they were on waivers on Sunday night when your line-up deadline was due... that you wouldn't complain?

Yeah, ok. ;-D

No, you're right, that's not against the rules. ;-D


Uhh...yes, actually, that's exactly what I'm saying. If he wants to drop his entire bench to pick up a bunch of waiver wire short stops I think that is completely within the rules.

Also, maybe I haven't made this clear in my previous posts...I'm talking rules here, not ethics. If I thought the actions were ethical then I would have no qualms about doing it myself. But things can often be within the rules but be unethical, and vice versa.
Art Vandelay
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy ExpertPick 3 Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5265
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby Sultans of Squat » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:10 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
josebach wrote:Do you honestly think rule#1 is designed to allow teams to pick up players and immediately drop them so that they are on waivers and unavailable for other teams to pick up? Because it helps your standings in the league? That was it's intention?

Scary.


No. What I'm saying is that I have no idea how it was "designed" and neither does anyone who didn't design it. It is open for interpretation just like almost every other rule known to man. I have no way to infer intent on this...I literally have no way of knowing what the guy who wrote these rules indended for them. I would not use this method, but if someone used it against me I would not complain.

Also, if, as I have argued, the sole purpose of a move is to improve standing and not to hamper play, then rule four isn't broken anyway.


I can see your point, BUT it's a bit too academic, artificial and/or contrived given the context. Afterall, we're talking about FBB, not life and death or anything else that serious. I don't think we want to have to retain lawyers on our behalves just so we can "enjoy" the game. There will always be flaws in rules made by man, and somebody will have to make a sound interpretation of the rules as best they can. And for a simple game of FBB, it's best to stick w/ some common sense when interpreting the rules. I guess if you must, you can always ask Yahoo for an interpretation.

Besides, the point is now kinda moot anyway as Yahoo modified their add/drop function to eliminate that particular tactic of keeping players on the WW. And really, the fact that Yahoo made this kind of change should be strong enough to suggest what they think about this tactic. No need to argue for the other side in this case.
Sultans of Squat
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 644
(Past Year: 11)
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby The Loveable Losers » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:13 pm

The point is that Yahoo! has rules in place to prevent this type of roster churning. Unless you're willing to sacrifice one of your bench players then you can't do this at all. And since dropping the same day as adding no longer puts a guy on waivers this is pretty much a non-issue as far as 'dropping every shortstop to put them on waivers.

If someone did that on Yahoo then you could pick up all of the players they dropped in order to do that to you and they'd have no way to stop you (since you can't claim a guy that YOU dropped from waivers - only as a FA).

I think we can all agree that this is one of those grey area type things and certainly isn't enforceable. Someone could pick up 3 SP's as FA's for any number of reasons and have things look the same.

1) They could pick them up and then forget to set their lineup with every intention of playing them.
2) They could pick them up with the intention of starting them and then back out due to any number of reasons (decided the matchup was bad, saw the other team start/not start certain pitchers, etc).
3) They could pick them up in order to do what was originally suggested in the thread - to get the other owner to pick up SP's and start them.
4) They could pick them up to keep other teams from picking them up.

All of these things would appear the exact same - SP's get picked up and then not started. Ethically speaking I have no problem with any of them except for #3 and even then it depends on the mindset of the owners in the league in which you play. Some leagues would even frown on #1 and get bent out of shape. Others would consider every single example to be kosher. But they're all certainly 'legal' within the letter of Yahoo's rules. Ethics are relative to the league itself.
The Loveable Losers
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterWeb Supporter
Posts: 7290
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Cubs Win!!! Cubs Win!!!

Postby josebach » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:14 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Uhh...yes, actually, that's exactly what I'm saying. If he wants to drop his entire bench to pick up a bunch of waiver wire short stops I think that is completely within the rules.


All it takes is one roster spot to add/drop multiple players in the same day. That's why Yahoo stopped allowing it.

Well if your common sense doesn't tell you that Yahoo's rules were designed to stop this type of behavior than there's no point discussing it further.
josebach
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2036
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Tallahassee

Postby Sultans of Squat » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:15 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:Uhh...yes, actually, that's exactly what I'm saying. If he wants to drop his entire bench to pick up a bunch of waiver wire short stops I think that is completely within the rules.


Actually, that's not what the other guy was doing -- not the issue posed by the original OP, but some other guy later on. He was doing same day add/drops to keep players on waivers. He only needed 1 roster spot open for that. No need to dump his entire bench unless he only has 1 bench spot.

I'm not sure about JoseBach, but most of us are ok w/ an owner picking up guys and *holding* them on their roster. The real problem is when someone just does a bunch of same day add/drops to keep a bunch of players on waivers, which means they cannot be used for a few days by anyone else -- assuming you have a waiver rule set up.
Sultans of Squat
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 644
(Past Year: 11)
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby josebach » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:19 pm

Sultans of Squat wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Uhh...yes, actually, that's exactly what I'm saying. If he wants to drop his entire bench to pick up a bunch of waiver wire short stops I think that is completely within the rules.


Actually, that's not what the other guy was doing -- not the issue posed by the original OP, but some other guy later on. He was doing same day add/drops to keep players on waivers. He only needed 1 roster spot open for that. No need to dump his entire bench unless he only has 1 bench spot.

I'm not sure about JoseBach, but most of us are ok w/ an owner picking up guys and *holding* them on their roster. The real problem is when someone just does a bunch of same day add/drops to keep a bunch of players on waivers, which means they cannot be used for a few days by anyone else -- assuming you have a waiver rule set up.


Exactly, that was what started this whole thing. Ironman was bragging that he used this strategy to stop a guy that was spot starting a bunch of pitchers. My entire argument is aimed at that one post.
josebach
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2036
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Tallahassee

Postby Sultans of Squat » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:27 pm

josebach wrote:Exactly, that was what started this whole thing. Ironman was bragging that he used this strategy to stop a guy that was spot starting a bunch of pitchers. My entire argument is aimed at that one post.


I think though that we should cut Ironman some slack on this issue because he was only doing it in order to fight back against a certain injustice in the game, ie. his opponent was streaming SPs off the WW and the Commish didn't care.

Personally, if I were him, I'd just refuse to play in a league like that.
Sultans of Squat
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 644
(Past Year: 11)
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby josebach » Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:27 pm

The Loveable Losers wrote:The point is that Yahoo! has rules in place to prevent this type of roster churning. Unless you're willing to sacrifice one of your bench players then you can't do this at all. And since dropping the same day as adding no longer puts a guy on waivers this is pretty much a non-issue as far as 'dropping every shortstop to put them on waivers.


You're right. It is a non-issue now. The fact that Yahoo stopped allowing it is validation as to what the purpose of the rule was to begin with. Apparently, though, that's still not enough for some people.
josebach
Major League Manager
Major League Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2036
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Tallahassee

PreviousNext

Return to Baseball Leftovers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: apz, ensanimal, Laicekl, scarnicease and 5 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Wednesday, Sep. 17
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

LA Dodgers at Colorado
(3:10 pm)
San Francisco at Arizona
(3:40 pm)
Toronto at Baltimore
(7:05 pm)
Boston at Pittsburgh
(7:05 pm)
Washington at Atlanta
(7:10 pm)
Miami at NY Mets
(7:10 pm)
NY Yankees at Tampa Bay
(7:10 pm)
indoors
Cincinnati at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
Cleveland at Houston
(8:10 pm)
Chi White Sox at Kansas City
(8:10 pm)
Detroit at Minnesota
(8:10 pm)
Milwaukee at St. Louis
(8:15 pm)
Seattle at LA Angels
(10:05 pm)
Texas at Oakland
(10:05 pm)
Philadelphia at San Diego
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact