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are closers used wrong?

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are closers used wrong?

Postby dyuen87 » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:21 pm

i've always wondered this. why don't managers bring in their best pitcher in the biggest spot? for example today's met game, bases loaded with miguel cabrera up, willie randolph brings in shingo takatsu. i know it's been like this for ages, but why dont managers manage the game and not worry about stats. :-? just something to think about
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Re: are closers used wrong?

Postby HOOTIE » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:32 pm

dyuen87 wrote:i've always wondered this. why don't managers bring in their best pitcher in the biggest spot? for example today's met game, bases loaded with miguel cabrera up, willie randolph brings in shingo takatsu. i know it's been like this for ages, but why dont managers manage the game and not worry about stats. :-? just something to think about


Because mgrs are brainwashed into thinking that closers (best pitcher in pen) pitch only the 9th. The term closer should be eliminated. Many times the most important part of a game happens in 7th or 8th inning, where closer should be used. Using a closer in 9th with a 3 run lead is a complete waste, and 2 runs for the most part. A 1 run lead in the 7th with runners on is much more crunch time then a 2 or 3 run lead in 9th.
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Postby BaseballFann0008 » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:55 pm

thats why you see closers with a 1.1 ip Save usually is on a winning team with a smart manager B-)
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Re: are closers used wrong?

Postby DaQ » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:11 pm

dyuen87 wrote:i've always wondered this. why don't managers bring in their best pitcher in the biggest spot? for example today's met game, bases loaded with miguel cabrera up, willie randolph brings in shingo takatsu. i know it's been like this for ages, but why dont managers manage the game and not worry about stats. :-? just something to think about


The Mets have Takatsu?? :~( :~( :~(
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Postby Tavish » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:41 pm

BaseballFann0008 wrote:thats why you see closers with a 1.1 ip Save usually is on a winning team with a smart manager B-)


More often that is a manager who tried to use an ineffective set-up man and had to use the closer to bail them out. There are teams out there that tend to use the closer pretty effectively, although it usually happens as a by-product of those teams playing a ton of close games. Chad Cordero was one of the best used closers in the first half, but it wasn't some great design by Frank Robinson. The Nads were just in a ton of one run games.

There are also some teams who really don't use the closer all that well but get away with it because the middle of the bullpen is dominant. The Angels come to mind. They have one of the best used relievers (closer or not) and it isn't K-Rod.
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:50 pm

The Mets have Takatsu?? :~( :~( :~(


They needed someone to take over for Danny Graves in the "blow the game, miss the playoffs, cost BobbyRoberto another win" role (Graves blew my an 8-0 lead I had going with Pedro, Takatsu blew today's win I could have had with Benson).

Bringing in Takatsu in that situation was just a really bad move by Randolph. In the heat of the battle for the Wild Card, he should be using his top guns. Roberto Hernandez has pitched once in the last week, they're facing the Marlins, a team they're in direct competition with for the playoff spot. Just bad managing. Hopefully, he'll get better.
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Postby davidmarver » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:58 pm

10.1 IP, 9ER (7.84 ERA).

35.1 IP, 8ER (2.04 ERA).

Difference in Hoffman's ERA in save and non-save situations: some pitchers do better when that last inning rests on their shoulders...if that was not the case, then yes, closers are being used incorrectly, but I find that plenty of pitchers do better in save situations, where the game will end if they do their job.
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Postby dyuen87 » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:19 am

BobbyRoberto wrote:
The Mets have Takatsu?? :~( :~( :~(


They needed someone to take over for Danny Graves in the "blow the game, miss the playoffs, cost BobbyRoberto another win" role (Graves blew my an 8-0 lead I had going with Pedro, Takatsu blew today's win I could have had with Benson).

Bringing in Takatsu in that situation was just a really bad move by Randolph. In the heat of the battle for the Wild Card, he should be using his top guns. Roberto Hernandez has pitched once in the last week, they're facing the Marlins, a team they're in direct competition with for the playoff spot. Just bad managing. Hopefully, he'll get better.


yeah couldnt believe my eyes wen i saw him 8-o . i guess willie and torre have the same problem, bringing a guy up from the minors and throwing them into the fire right away. :-D
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Postby josebach » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:54 am

The reason they don't do it because it's a whole lot worse to lose a game in the 9th than it is in the 7th. All you would be doing by bringing closers in earlier than the 8th would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. The game is not necessarily on the line in the 7th if a run or two is scored. It IS on the line in the 9th. Imagine the heat managers would take if they used their closer in the 7th and then lost the game in the bottom of the 9th?
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Postby Dice » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:18 pm

There is something to say about pitchers having set, predictable roles. Coming to the ballpark not knowing if you're going to pitch in the 5th or the 9th would probably wear on a stud reliever.

That said, there could be a lot more flexibility in roles. For example, the Yankees bullpen gets burned out at the end of every year because of overuse. Instead of using Gordon in the 8th and Rivera in the 9th of every close game, what if Joe Torre alternated nights but let them pitch longer in each outing? So that they would pitch the 8th and 9th innings of games if needed, but appear half as often so that the innings came out to about the same amount. Would they be more effective? Less effective? They'd have more days of rest between appearances, and would warm up less than they do now even if they pitch as many innings.
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