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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:39 am

I go out for the night and there are 4 new pages. I don't want to go over old stuff but wrveres keeps coming up with these gems:
wrveres wrote:Nice to know that city officials there at least have a plan. ;-D

The city Officials in New Orleans have no clue.
None.
They don't even have control over the areas that they claim to control. :-t


So let me respond.

You seem to have no ZIP, ZERO, NADA concept of what local govt does. I don't want to minimize what they do but think small scale.

wrveres wrote:again, I'll repeat for you... Mookie!

Local government had no plan in place to evacuate an entire city below sea level, even though they have had 100's of years to draw up some sort of plan. ZIP, NADA



There are evacuation plans and an agency in place to implement it. The Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness Agency is a joint state/federal agency under the control of the military. They had a plan to evacuate New Orleans and this.

Since, not only the city is underwater but the state and evacuation would entail other states, there is no way that this could have been a local plan.

wrveres wrote:Local government had no plans in place to ensure the security of its citizens, in case of a natural disaster.

Local government had no plans in place to fix a hole in a levee that surrounds there entire city. ZIP, NADA


The levees also were built and maintained by the army corps of engineers. Federal army that is.

Also the Superdome is in the hands of the army as well.


wrveres wrote:but you know what, your right, this is Bush’s fault.
he should have drawn up an evacuation plan, even if any of his predecessors throughout history ignored it.
This is Bush fault that he didn't ensure the safety of the citizens of New Orleans after a natural disaster.
This is Bush's Fault for not come up with a contingency plan for the most logical what if scenario in a city below sea level.

why even have a local government? What do they do?

George "Superman" Bush will fix it, right?


Stop bringing politics into this. You and acs are the only ones that keep bringing up political affiliations. I could easily say that this was Bushes fault but I am only saying that you blaming local govt for a lack of planning is kindof absurd.
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Postby Madison » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:43 am

Mookie4ever wrote:
StlSluggers wrote:Sorry for the delay. My boss was having a meeting in the open-air conference room right behind my desk. I value my job over the great conversation here at the Café. Sorry… :-)


Not acceptable, sorry. Keeping your job should not take priority over a Cafe discussion (especially when I am winning, or I at least think that I am winning ;-) )

StlSluggers wrote:It doesn't cost $2B to have a plan in place to repair a broken levee. Even if someone else is in charge of the levee, you cannot give me one good reason why the city shouldn't have a solid plan in place for how to stop a massive breach of this nature.

However, if anyone wants to say that the city shouldn't have worried about the levees, then the city could have always built backup flood walls with their own funding. They would need to be tall, but not very long, so the cost wouldn't be massively prohibitive. It would allow them the opporunity to close the backup walls in the event of a levee breach; concede part of the city to save the rest.


Damn. You should have been mayor of New Orlean.

All it takes is some back up walls eh? Not prohibitively expensive you say? Who'd a thunk it? :-?

StlSluggers wrote:That is an idea I am borrowing from such little Illinois river towns like Wood River, Alton, & East Alton where they established their own backup flood walls just in case the federally-controlled levees failed........The walls/gates were actually put to use during the flood of 1993, saving much of Wood River and East Alton (and even parts of Alton) from a fate similar to that of New Orleans'.


The water in New Orleans is presently 30 feet deep. The central drainage pump is the single largest pump in the world moving 10,000 cubic feet of water per second (a rate equal to the Colorado river) but you are probably right, a few extra walls/gates woulda done the trick.

StlSluggers wrote:
It also doesn't cost $2B to move people out of the lowest elevations of New Orleans in a piecemeal fashion over a series of years (relocation).


Where were you during the expropriation discussion? I could check but I can guess what your position would have been.

StlSluggers wrote:But all of those "coulda, woulda, shoulda" scenarios don't actually give me full justification to blame the city government. When FoxNews shows one city official the levee break, and he replies, "We weren't prepared for this," then I have no problem whatsoever blaming them.


While your suggestions were creative and very plausible, I still don't see any solutions that a sane person could have implemented. Of course they weren't prepared for it, it was an Act of God. Adequate preparation would have meant a $2 billion dollar exercise in dam building or moving everybody out of there. I think that you should cut these people some slack and stop looking to point the finger.


StlSluggers wrote:
wrveres wrote:Is anybody utterly amazed that the city of New Orleans had/has no plan in place in case something like this happened. I mean they built an entire city not only surrounded by water but basically under water, and no one, not one major elected official has thought about the most logical basic .. What if.

This is insane. They are shooting at the military helicopters. They are stealing supplies from the people coming into help. Actually holding them up at gunpoint.

What I want to know is ...
If 80% of the city is underwater, how are they stealing cars and police cars and mail trucks, and driving them around. It would seem this would be easy to police. You only have to guard 20 % of the town.

So ..
They built a city 20 feet under sea level.
Had no contingency in case of the most logical disaster.
Had no security plan set up for its citizens in case of disaster
Obviously, no pre-organized relief plan of any kind ...

Zip - None - Nada ..

Now I do not know for sure.
But if had to guess, I would bet dollars to donuts that New Orleans has probably voted democrat for the better part of 40 plus years.

Not one city official had a plan ..
amazing.

This is sad.
Truly sad. :-t
I sent a PM to Mook about this. Earlier, he complimented the government on how they handled the situation, and I basically told him that I thought it should be the exact opposite.

There have been quotes in the media to suggest that they were not in the slightest prepared for an event that was, relatively speaking, highly probable. The mass confusion afterwards is just further proof.


The plans were there - it just looked like they were too expensive.


Mookie, are you trying to say that it's ok the local government just threw up it's hands and made zero preparations at all, simply because the federal government refused to fund the amount of money they wanted?

Being an "act of God" isn't a viable excuse either. They knew something like this could happen. It's not like they woke up one morning and cows were falling to earth on top of them. Now that would be something I could understand them being unprepared for. Getting hit by a hurricane, while sitting below sea level? They should have been prepared, regardless of what the federal government did.

Also, I don't think anyone's pointing a finger. It's not the government's fault that a hurricane hit them, but I see nothing wrong with pointing out the fact that the government did jack chit to prepare for it. Bunch of idiots, and they should all be fired for being too stupid to hold the position they have.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:46 am

wrveres wrote:
Pablo975 wrote:
CubsFan7724 wrote:Rapes, fistfights, general theivery, are all running rampant.


Ehh. Sounds like a normal Thursday in the 504.

Seriously, it is bad there, but all that can be done is being done. Those adult people knew the risks of living there. All of them. I've NEVER lived there and this is EXACTLY why. I knew the risks of living in NO (crime, poverty stricken areas, hurricane flood risk) and decided that it wasn't for me.

Now, is there racism in NO? Of course. Same as anywhere else. But no greater than anywhere else though. NO is like 70% black anyway, so there would naturally be more black people in any tv shot, be it at a Saints game, Mardi Gras, or this horrible occurence.
However, since black people are statistically: the least educated, make the least money, and are more likely to have a criminal record and therefore low paying or criminal enterprise jobs they would be the last to leave in such a situation. White people are just statisically more likely to have the resources to fly out, gas up the car and drive to Florida or Texas and get a room or stay with family. So, it is not strange that the majority left in NO are black and it is not a racist conspiracy.

Last I saw, both black and white officers and citizens were working their butts off over there.

I must also comment on how some people on tv are crying why they were 'left" there. I see this way: The able bodied, resourceful people who just sat in their house waiting for Uncle Sam to come get them out have no right to complain. They could have left and rolled the dice and lost. Suck it up. We'll get to you when we get to you.

This, to me, is the worst example of how modern Americans often are raised to think the government should tend to their every need.
We raise people on the government teat, so why should we expect them to not whine when they don't get their milk? These people have to do SOMETHING for themselves. Somehow, ancient people (ummm...as recently as 100 years ago) did just fine without runnng water, electricity, and walked everywhere or rode an animal around.

Once you're out of harms way and put on a dry surface you have two choices: Go your own way and make the decisions you feel are best or stick with the rescuers and accept whatever they give you. You can't have it both ways. Sadly, we've raised many people to believe they're entitled to that and when it doesn't happen, it's someone else's fault or someone is out to get them.


solid post ;-D ;-D


Agreed, good commentary. ;-D

I also predict that we will soon be hearing many stories of heroism and bravery. Not false b/c I am sure that there are many heros out there. I am also sure that there are lots of local heros helping out their neighbours and the sick.........and posting updates on fantasy baseball boards :-D
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:03 am

Madison wrote:Mookie, are you trying to say that it's ok the local government just threw up it's hands and made zero preparations at all, simply because the federal government refused to fund the amount of money they wanted?


Not at all. I am saying that to fully defend against this, and not just for NO but for the entire area was too expensive.

Madison wrote:Being an "act of God" isn't a viable excuse either. They knew something like this could happen. It's not like they woke up one morning and cows were falling to earth on top of them. Now that would be something I could understand them being unprepared for. Getting hit by a hurricane, while sitting below sea level? They should have been prepared, regardless of what the federal government did.

Also, I don't think anyone's pointing a finger. It's not the government's fault that a hurricane hit them, but I see nothing wrong with pointing out the fact that the government did jack chit to prepare for it. Bunch of idiots, and they should all be fired for being too stupid to hold the position they have.


If you don't see finger pointing go back and read wr's posts. I really believe that the local govt is being unfairly criticized and the mayor is being unfairly compared to Guliani. NO does not have the size, influence, power and money of NYC.

Guiliani is a hero and the mayor of NO is no hero.

But at the same time local govt cannot be blamed for failure of the levee system (army responsibility) or the evacuation plans (state and homeland security responsibility).

I don't know why people feel the need to dole out blame especially at such an early stage. We cannot complain about media sensationalism and at the same time accuse people of incompetence without adequate information about what people did and what they were responsible for.
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Postby wrveres » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:22 am

Great read here if anybody is interested.

Mark Fischetti wrote an article about this exact scenario 5 years ago for Scientific American.

He didn't predict the Mayor getting on the radio every night and throwing temper tantrums, nor did he predict that the police would just walk off the job, but he did predict that 10,000 people were going to die in New Orleans, and very soon.

Its long, but still a great read.

Every 24 minutes Louisiana loses one acre of land.

Since the late 1980s Louisiana's senators have made various pleas to Congress to fund massive remedial work. But they were not backed by a unified voice. L.S.U. had its surge models, and the Corps had others. Despite agreement on general solutions, competition abounded as to whose specific projects would be most effective. The Corps sometimes painted academics' cries about disaster as veiled pitches for research money. Academia occasionally retorted that the Corps's solution to everything was to bulldoze more dirt and pour more concrete, without scientific rationale. Meanwhile oystermen and shrimpers complained that the proposals from both the scientists and the engineers would ruin their fishing grounds.

Len Bahr, head of the governor's Coastal Activities Office in Baton Rouge, tried to bring everyone together. Passionate about southern Louisiana, Bahr has survived three governors, each with different sympathies. "This is the realm in which science has to operate," Bahr says. "There are five federal agencies and six state agencies with jurisdiction over what happens in the wetlands." Throughout the 1990s, Bahr says with frustration, "we only received $40 million a year" from Congress, a drop compared with the bucket of need. Even with the small projects made possible by these dollars, Louisiana scientists predicted that by 2050 coastal Louisiana would lose another 1,000 square miles of marsh and swamp, an area the size of Rhode Island.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:14 am

Other places built below sealevel: Venice, Bangladesh, the Netherlands :-o
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Postby wrveres » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:24 am

More Hurricane Fallout. :-o :-o

September 1st Officials with the U.S. Geological Survey who flew over the Gulf Coast from Florida to Louisiana said Thursday that most of the Chandeleur chain of barrier islands - the first line of storm defense for eastern Louisiana and western Mississippi - appears to be gone. What is usually a continuous line of dunes is now just marshy outcrops, said Ann Tihansky, a hydrologist with the survey. "It's unbelievable," she said, after reviewing the results of an aerial video survey.

"It just makes the coastline more and more susceptible because more of that storm surge can move further inland," said Glenn Guntenspergen, a U.S. Geological Survey landscape ecologist who has studied the effect of hurricanes on Gulf Coast ecosystems.

With the loss of the islands and wetlands that buffer the region, he said, "It becomes less and less likely for the systems to be able to recover from these kinds of storms. The systems as a whole are rapidly losing their ability to recover."
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Postby Fireball Express » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:37 am

I pray that part of the country does not get hit with another hurricane this year. I thought last year was brutal for some Florida residents that got hit by a few storms. Another hit around NO would send all recovery efforts backwards




And for you guys that like to point fingers...
There are 2 types of people in this world; those who search for blame and those who search for solutions.
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Postby WharfRat » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:49 am

WR - Thanks for the Sci-Am article. Great read from a great publication.

Great posts from Pablo and Rkiivs. I think "genocide" is a little misused, but I see your point. I'm still hopign to see a good article or essay that tries to address the question of, "What happens to these people?" from someone with the proper background.

As far as assigning blame to federal or local government - it's probably safe to assume that neither entity has treated the situation as adequately as they should have, either in the last few days or over the last few decades leading up to now, and for a multitude of reasons. Let's face it, whether the job of protecting New Orleans from a Category 5 hurricane was undertaken by federal or local government, a task of this MAGNITUDE was bound to fall short in some way shape or form. Local government has every right to complain about the lack of help they're getting now, even if planning for the situation was poor. What should they do? Simply say, "Our city is descending down to the 4th level of Hell, but it's our fault, so we won't complain"?? That would be neither practical nor sensible.
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Postby wrveres » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:50 am

Fireball Express wrote:And for you guys that like to point fingers...
There are 2 types of people in this world; those who search for blame and those who search for solutions.


agreed ... ;-D
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