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most underrated player ever?

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Most underrated

Postby Stejay » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:31 am

"Shoeless" Joe Jackson.The best to neverbe put into the hall of fame
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Postby nuggets » Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:10 pm

How about Negro league players? :-?

And why aren't any stats of that league on bball reference?

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Postby WharfRat » Sun Feb 26, 2006 2:19 pm

nuggets wrote:How about Negro league players? :-?

And why aren't any stats of that league on bball reference?

http://www.blackbaseball.com/


I'd say Negro Leaguers are definitely underrated. There are probably many fans who couldn't tell you much about Turkey Stearnes, even though he's in the Hall (the same fans who also couldn't tell you much about Tris Speaker).

But the numbers are absolutely an issue. From Baseball Reference FAQ's:

Why don't you have Negro League statistics?

There are a couple of reasons. The first is time. I haven't been able to add a lot of the features I would like to add and this is just one more. The second is that records from the Negro Leagues are very sketchy and sometimes putting up bad statistics is worse than nothing at all. For information on Negro Leaguers, I recommend The Negro League Baseball Museum.


Which I can understand, although I do wonder how the reliability of the Negro League numbers compares with the numbers from 19th century leagues. But either way, not having a reliable set of stats could easily lead someone to underrate them as a group.
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Re: yup how ironic

Postby Strasil42 » Sat May 13, 2006 7:58 pm

davestevenson31 wrote:sadly i have only seen him pitch once despite watching twenty padres games between last year and this year specifically to see trevor pitch lol. but he was freaking awesome in the game i saw him in. he is so much better than rivera, it's not even funny. hoffman completely outsmarts you rather than overpowering you, but if he wants to, he can overpower you as well. hall of fame quality without a doubt. he has more saves than rivera, and the highest save conversion rate ever (for all those who had more than 200 saves). if they let eckersley in, they sure as heck better let hoffman in.


so you have seen hoffman pitch one game before and he is so much better than rivera????

You have to be kidding...
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Thu May 25, 2006 10:17 am

nuggets wrote:How about Negro league players? :-?

And why aren't any stats of that league on bball reference?

http://www.blackbaseball.com/


I'm in the middle of reading Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract. Went right to the section on the Negro Leagues and I'll toss out the name Josh Gibson. I'll have to look up the stats later and post them but he put up ridiculous .400+ average with power numbers...as a catcher. ;-D Sounds like the Mike Piazza of his time with the difference being that he was an above average catcher as opposed to whatever you want to call Piazza's 'catching prowess'. !+)
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Postby noseeum » Wed May 31, 2006 1:34 am

If you're mentioning closers, Rich Gossage is the most underrated. He should definitely be in the Hall. Absolutely terrified the league for a real long time.

And that Fu Manchu? You gotta love him.

Hoffman better than Rivera? Umm, I don't think so. Real pressure situation down there in San Diego, I tell ya. "Yo Trevor, if you lose this game, you're buying the pina coladas tonight."

He did a find job against the Yanks in the World Series too. 3 run homer in his only appearance. Blown save and the loss.

Hoffman is great, but baseball is about winning, and Rivera has done that better than any closer in history.
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Postby noseeum » Wed May 31, 2006 1:44 am

I'm a Yankee fan, and I think I might have to throw a nod towards Wade Boggs.

He gets knocked as a singles only guy, but he wasn't for the first 9 years or so. 1.049 OPS one season. And if the Sox brought him up two years earlier like they should have, he could have thrown another 300 hits up on the board.
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Postby SeovyeQuirsefron » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:58 am

How about a guy named Ken Williams who played for the St. Louis Browns in the '20s!! this guy led the American League in home runs in 1922 with 39 and finished among the Top 4 in HRs every year from 1921 to 1927.

I'm not saying this guy is HOF material or even close, but he's good enough that if he hadn't been buried on the horrible Browns teams, we would have at least heard his name. I only became aware of him last week, and I've been a baseball fan for 35+ years.

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Postby The Big Train » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:11 am

I definitely agree with the Lefty Grove argument.

But, I gotta go with Ron Santo on this one. Third baseman are the most under represented group in the HOF and Santo was one of the best. Played in the 60's mostly, a time when offence was depressed (Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in '68???) and he still hit 342 career home runs. Had an very good OBP (led the league in walks a number of times, a value that doesn't get recognized), a solid glove with 5 straight gold gloves to his credit (defence not recognized by HOF enough either), and he played on a horrible team that was never in a pennant race or World Series. It's true he benefitted from hitting at Wrigley, but Bill James noted that he is sixth in win shares for the 1960s behind only Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Robinson and Killebrew.
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:22 am

The Big Train wrote:I definitely agree with the Lefty Grove argument.

But, I gotta go with Ron Santo on this one. Third baseman are the most under represented group in the HOF and Santo was one of the best. Played in the 60's mostly, a time when offence was depressed (Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA in '68???) and he still hit 342 career home runs. Had an very good OBP (led the league in walks a number of times, a value that doesn't get recognized), a solid glove with 5 straight gold gloves to his credit (defence not recognized by HOF enough either), and he played on a horrible team that was never in a pennant race or World Series. It's true he benefitted from hitting at Wrigley, but Bill James noted that he is sixth in win shares for the 1960s behind only Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Robinson and Killebrew.


Not to mention I've never heard a broadcaster that lives and dies with the team more than Santo. Every time they lose he sounds like someone kicked him in the gut and every time they win you're afraid he's going to fall over dead from sheer joy.
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