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How come Rivera was never a SP?

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Postby garf112 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:17 pm

When a guy becomes a relief pitcher, it is NOT usually because he doesn't have the stamina to be a starter. It is because he does not have a third or fourth pitch that is major league average. As a starter you need those pitches to get guys out in the 5th and 6th innings and beyond because if you only have one or two pitches, hitters can just guess and get away with it. You need to be able to change speeds and throw the ball on different planes in order to be a starter.
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Postby garf112 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:22 pm

The knuckleball acts as an off-speed pitch/ way to change the hitters eye-level on every pitch because it is so unpredictable. Therefore, a knuckleball pitcher can have success with only that one pitch.
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Postby psflipper » Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:40 pm

The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.
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Postby Rirruto » Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:44 pm

psflipper wrote:
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.

No, but I think he might say that they are better starting pitchers than Rivera.
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Postby vapormike » Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:50 pm

Rirruto wrote:
psflipper wrote:
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.

No, but I think he might say that they are better starting pitchers than Rivera.


Well that's kind of like saying Pudge Rodriguez is a better catcher than A-Rod.
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Postby Rirruto » Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:52 pm

vapormike wrote:
Rirruto wrote:
psflipper wrote:
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.

No, but I think he might say that they are better starting pitchers than Rivera.


Well that's kind of like saying Pudge Rodriguez is a better catcher than A-Rod.

Not really since Rivera actually used to be a starter.
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Postby The Jury » Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:29 pm

psflipper wrote:
The Jury wrote:It's simple - he's not good enough to be a starter. A lot of pitcher flourish as relievers but in the big picture, they aren't as good as starting pitchers.


that's a ridiculous statement. so you're saying that Eric Milton, or Hideo Nomo are better pitchers than Mariano Rivera. It has nothing to do with how good he but rather how he goes about being good.


It's not ridiculous. You're attempting to compare starters to relievers, which is like comparing carpet fibres to hangnails.

Rivera may or may not be as good/bad as those starters you named or any other starter, but he's definitely not as good a starter as a reliever.

I'm sure you'll agree that that Eric Gagne is at least in Rivera's class as a dominant reliever. Here are Gagne's numbers. Only in 2002, when he started zero games, was he dominant.

Pitching
Year Team G GS W L SV IP H R ER BB K CG SHO ERA WHIP
1999 LA 5 5 1 1 0 30.0 18 8 7 15 30 0 0 2.10 1.10
2000 LA 20 19 4 6 0 101.0 106 62 58 60 79 0 0 5.17 1.64
2001 LA 33 24 6 7 0 151.2 144 90 80 46 130 0 0 4.76 1.26
2002 LA 77 0 4 1 52 82.1 55 18 18 16 114 0 0 1.97 0.86
2003 LA 77 0 2 3 55 82.1 37 12 11 20 137 0 0 1.20 0.69
2004 LA 70 0 7 3 45 82.1 53 24 20 22 114 0 0 2.19 0.91
2005 LA 14 0 1 0 8 13.1 10 4 4 3 22 0 0 2.70 0.98
[quote:4fef447375="Geek"]The odds of the AL MVP coming from the American League are looking pretty good.[/quote]
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Postby The Jury » Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:33 pm

Mo Rivera's numbers:

Pitching
Year Team G GS W L SV IP H R ER BB K CG SHO ERA WHIP
1995 NYY 19 10 5 3 0 67.0 71 43 41 30 51 0 0 5.51 1.51
1996 NYY 61 0 8 3 5 107.0 73 25 25 34 130 0 0 2.10 1.00
1997 NYY 66 0 6 4 43 71.0 65 17 15 20 68 0 0 1.90 1.20
1998 NYY 54 0 3 0 36 61.0 48 13 13 17 36 0 0 1.92 1.07
1999 NYY 66 0 4 3 45 69.0 43 15 14 18 52 0 0 1.83 0.88
2000 NYY 66 0 7 4 36 75.0 58 26 24 25 58 0 0 2.88 1.11
2001 NYY 71 0 4 6 50 80.2 61 24 21 12 83 0 0 2.36 0.91
2002 NYY 45 0 1 4 28 46.0 35 16 14 11 41 0 0 2.74 1.00
2003 NYY 64 0 5 2 40 70.2 61 15 13 10 63 0 0 1.66 1.00
2004 NYY 74 0 4 2 53 78.2 65 17 17 20 66 0 0 1.94 1.08
2005 NYY 46 0 5 2 30 49.0 25 11 5 11 54 0 0 0.92 0.73

Just like Gagne's, the year that he starts zero games is the year that enters into dominance.
[quote:4fef447375="Geek"]The odds of the AL MVP coming from the American League are looking pretty good.[/quote]
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:38 pm

Yoda wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:Just being presumptuous here, but I assume his arm couldn't shoulder the workload of a 300+ inning season of work, or the throwing 100 pitches every 5 days schedule. A lot of pitchers have had this happen, including the likes of Jason Isringhausen, Octavio Dotel, among others. Pitching under 100 IP/season is a day at the beach compared to a SPs workload of innings.


Actually this had absolutely nothing to do with it.


Then enlighten me. I'm interested, myself. As I said, I was being presumptuous, and actually have no clue. But, since you've already discounted my notion, I'd love to know the real deal.
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Postby garf112 » Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:48 pm

bigh0rt wrote:
Yoda wrote:
bigh0rt wrote:Just being presumptuous here, but I assume his arm couldn't shoulder the workload of a 300+ inning season of work, or the throwing 100 pitches every 5 days schedule. A lot of pitchers have had this happen, including the likes of Jason Isringhausen, Octavio Dotel, among others. Pitching under 100 IP/season is a day at the beach compared to a SPs workload of innings.


Actually this had absolutely nothing to do with it.


Then enlighten me. I'm interested, myself. As I said, I was being presumptuous, and actually have no clue. But, since you've already discounted my notion, I'd love to know the real deal.


if you look back to my post on the first page, you will find your answer.
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