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Top 12 power hitters.......interesting numbers comparison

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Postby baseballnewb » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:55 am

They don't pay him to drive in runs, they pay him to produce runs and getting on base produces runs. Swinging at balls generally does not. Also as I posted above, his SLG and AVG are also better with RISP than without this year so any way you look at it he's been fine.

He's 6th in the NL in RBI even though he batted 6th most of the year, he's 3rd in the NL in R's, he's tied for 1st in HR. If you look at R+RBI he ranks 3rd in the NL behind Pujols and Lee. Anyway you cut it his walks are not killing him or hurting the team.
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Postby phunkadelic » Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:14 am

Dunn W/RISP
April - June 30: .189 (10 - 59) 20 RBI
July: .345 (10 - 29) 22 RBI

...He's getting better ;-)
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:51 am

RynMan wrote:Moving house gives you plenty of time to think.

I have read several people pointing to OBP and SLUG as more relevant stats to talk about for A-Rod and these other hitters to compare them in these situations. I tend to think that NZF has correctly identified the best stat to use in his argument - Batting Average.

Think about it. OBP is basically BA with walks. When you have a runner in scoring position and you walk, sure you do perform well by not costing your team an out, but at the same time you havent performed by driving the runners in. Loaded bases are a different story because a walk directly helps your team's cause, however loaded bases are rarer.

If your argument is that A-Rod doesn't HIT as well wit runners in scoring position (i.e. get on base via a hit), than BA not OBP is a more appropriate statistic to use. OBP and SLUG correlate to runs scored, however we aren't talking about runs scored.....we are talking about individual performance in certain situations. I dont think its fair to dismiss BA in this situation as NZF merely selecting a statistic that best suits his argument (although I will admit Im not fimiliar with the previous thread), because to me iit seems as though BA would be a very good statistic to use - how many times has the guy got a hit with runners in scoring position and not. Walks are generally considered to be in large part a fault of the pitcher - as it is an outcome he has control of.


I would strongly agree with you...if that was the argument.

But NZF has changed his argument so many times that it's become pitiful. The latest argument is...A-Rod puts up all his numbers in blowout games, or games where they are getting blown out. He fails whenever the game is on the line. Just two days ago in that other thread, when A-Rod hit the 2 run homerun to make the game 6-3, he said something to the effect of "There's A-Rod once again, putting up numbers in a game where they're getting blown out." I'll go find the exact quote if you want it.

The fact is, BA w/ RISP has nothing to do with the fact that A-Rod either does or doesn't do well when the game is on the line. Does A-Rod perform better with nobody on than he does with RISP? Of course. I can't dispute simple facts. But that has nothing to do with the conversation. If you want to measure a players worth when the game is on the line, look at Close and Late stats (7th inning or later where the team is up by 1, down by 1, or tied.) A-Rod has exceptional numbers in these situations, both in BA and OBP, whatever stat you feel is more important.

NZF refuted Close and Late stats in a PM to me last night, saying that if A-Rod was so valuable, why has Texas been so good without him. That statement right there is enough to make my mouth drop open. He doesn't attribute Texas's success to the fact that 3 young players broke out, Teixiera, Young, Blalock.....the fact that they got a stud player in return for A-Rod, Soriano......Fransisco Cordero came into his own and got 49 saves.....and Kenny Rogers had a nice season, anchoring that rotiation. No, it was all because A-Rod...the best player in baseball (or the 2nd wrveres ;-) ) left the team. ;-7

Yes, he used that argument to combat my close and late stats for THIS year, with the New York Yankees. Pathetic. :-t
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:56 am

davidmarver wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Wrveres, go check out that thread in the Game Commentary forum. You'll see that he was bashing Rodriguez using one stat early in the season, and later in the year when A-Rod was doing well in that category, he deemed it insignificant and moved onto another stat that helped his point.

And now he refuses to acknowledge my question, simply because he has no answer for it. If he had an answer, he would have posted it. Wrveres, I consider you to be a pretty fair and objective mind here at the Cafe, and you cannot possibly tell me I am off-base by saying what I am. I cannot believe the ignorance of NZF to pick and choose what stats he thinks are significant, and not even acknowledge anyone else's point of view.

BTW, sorry about the word. I thought it was one, I hear people use it all the time. Oh well, I learned something new today. Thanks for the correction.

I hate to bring this up, but that is the SAME EXACT THING Blankman did (not answer the question) regarding Quantrill and May/Redding, because the answer was not the one he wanted to hear, yet he was defended.


Well I can't speak for blankman but if that's the case, then I don't agree.

If if makes you feel better, in retrospect I wish they didn't get May or Redding. But at the time, I still would've done the trade. That was my argument all along. The Yankees need arms that could eat up innings, and Quantrill was playing like garbage, so it made sense. I still would've made the deal, but looking back, Quantrill has been better than Redding and May.

Again, contrary to what most people think, there are Yankee fans that aren't homers. I try to be as unbiased as I can. Just because a Yankee fan defends a Yankee player, doesn't mean he has a crappy argument. I wish people would read through the actual debate, and then judge whether you think a fan is being too biased.
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Postby blankman » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:05 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:NZF refuted Close and Late stats in a PM to me last night, saying that if A-Rod was so valuable, why has Texas been so good without him. That statement right there is enough to make my mouth drop open. He doesn't attribute Texas's success to the fact that 3 young players broke out, Teixiera, Young, Blalock.....the fact that they got a stud player in return for A-Rod, Soriano......Fransisco Cordero came into his own and got 49 saves.....and Kenny Rogers had a nice season, anchoring that rotiation. No, it was all because A-Rod...the best player in baseball (or the 2nd wrveres ;-) ) left the team. ;-7


WOW. Just wow. I've seen him and I believe david, attempt to make this same absolutely ridiculous argument before. I've posted why this notion is so stupid before with the numbers and I could dig that post up again, but the point was that Texas saw the emergence of those 3 young guys because of age and development, got a great closer, and went from last in AL ERA in Alex's last year to middle of the road. And no, his salary coming off did not enable them to go out and get a bunch of pitchers that caused that great improvement, because they did not go out and spend big money. I believe a total of like $50 million other than his contract also came off the books for Texas that year.
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Postby superfly » Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:14 pm

wrveres wrote:Ok I just went and looked it up.

Adam Dunn has had 85 "At-Bats" with RISP.
91 other players have more "At-Bats" with RISP than Adam.
Cesar Izturis has had 85 "At-Bats" with RISP. :-o
Adam La Roche has had 85 "At-Bats" with RISP, and driven in just as many guys as Dunn with RISP, and he is not even a regular.


on top of that, Adam bats middle of the order on highest scoring team in the NL.

how can he have so few ABs with RISP?
How can that be? ;-7


1. Dunn has not batted in the middle of the order.
2. Walks do not hurt the team so I see no reason to factor in walks.
3. Even if you want to factor in walks, I would be willing to bet Dunn's RBI/PLATE APPEARANCE with RISP would still be very good compared to those *elite* players I listed.
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Postby superfly » Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:33 pm

superfly wrote:1. Dunn has not batted in the middle of the order.
2. Walks do not hurt the team so I see no reason to factor in walks.
3. Even if you want to factor in walks, I would be willing to bet Dunn's RBI/PLATE APPEARANCE with RISP would still be very good compared to those *elite* players I listed.


In fact, I'm bored so I went ahead and did that. Here is the revised RBI/PLATE APPEARANCE with RISP. You can stop using the walks argument now. Not only does it help your team in the first place, but even if you count it in, Dunn is still very comparable despite his high walk rate.

Manny: .588
Shef: .492
Vlad: .446
C.Lee: .444
D.Lee: .441
Ortiz: .429

Dunn: .402

Pujols: .398
Tejada: .398
Sexson: .396
Miguel Cabrera: .372
A-Rod: .351
Aramis: .350
Andruw: .288
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Postby NZF » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:10 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
But NZF has changed his argument so many times that it's become pitiful. The latest argument is...A-Rod puts up all his numbers in blowout games, or games where they are getting blown out.


You sent me a private message last night saying you deserved respect. Typically with anything you write in here I tend to disagree.

My original argument way back in May was A-Rod this season has put up a great majority of his numbers (never all his numbers) in blow out wins or losses. That WAS my original argument. For you to come out and say now that I've changed it to this shows how little respect you have earned and deserve. You've also changed my wording to suit your own agenda. Your posts are nonsense and I for one have stopped reading them. You PM'd me last night calling me out and saying I was disrepectful to you. You really have some nerve. In my eyes respect is earned not expected.

A-Rod hit 6 HR's / 20 RBI's during an eight day period in April. That is over 1/5 of his total production in these categories this season. I've never denied he is one hell of a fantasy baseball player and deserves his Top 3 rating, just that he appeared to have better production in games where there was perhaps less pressure on him. That is for example blow out wins or losses, or playing for a team no one expected to win like the Texas Rangers.

A great deal of what he has done since has done nothing to change my mind on this.

After my initial point for discussion, at a later date and to attempt to substantiate my theory, I introduced stats when he came up in pressure type situations.

At this time it was not a significant sample size and that's why I haven't produced them again until now. Into August we now have a decent sample size and it shows very clearly to me anyway that A-Rod, unlike every other Top 12 hitters in the majors, performs better in less pressure type situations.

I don't believe in clutch. Every major leaguer is clutch from time to time. It is still very interesting to see these contrasting numbers and in my mind is certainly worthy of discussion. If you see this as simply A-Rod bashing and can contribute nothing further that is positive to the discussion, then stay out of the thread.
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Postby NZF » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:21 pm

blankman wrote:
And Alex's .484 OBP Close and Late; thats flat out incredible. 8-o


I just love the way you blatantly use half hearted, incomplete stats to disguise the truth.

A-Rod with RISP in close and late games this year is hitting a paltry .222.

His OBP is .364 and his Slg is .333. That, is flat out incredible considering his overall numbers.

Also, against the main two division rivals, in games that are always must wins, A-Rod this season is hitting .233 against Baltimore with an OBP of .261 and has a .255 BA against the Red Sox.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:31 pm

New Zealand Fan wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
But NZF has changed his argument so many times that it's become pitiful. The latest argument is...A-Rod puts up all his numbers in blowout games, or games where they are getting blown out.


You sent me a private message last night saying you deserved respect. Typically with anything you write in here I tend to disagree.


I sent you a PM saying that you were acting childish and being disrespectful to EVERYONE who had a different view than you. Not just me. You have refused to look at our argument, while I have continuously admitted that A-Rod has been worse with RISP than he has otherwise.

My original argument way back in May was A-Rod this season has put up a great majority of his numbers (never all his numbers) in blow out wins or losses. That WAS my original argument.


YES. That was your argument. And I argued back that BA with RISP had very little to do with that. It proves nothing. You can bat with RISP in any situation; any inning, any score.

For you to come out and say now that I've changed it to this shows how little respect you have earned and deserve. You've also changed my wording to suit your own agenda.


You then changed your argument to....A-Rod does worse with RISP than he does in other situations. I am not the one who deserves no respect here. I never changed your wording. Show me what you're talking about.

Your posts are nonsense and I for one have stopped reading them. You PM'd me last night calling me out and saying I was disrepectful to you. You really have some nerve. In my eyes respect is earned not expected.


How are my posts nonsensical? The fact that you can hit with RISP in any situation is a nonsensical argument? You're wrong. The fact that BA with RISP has anything to do with how A-Rod performs in blowout games is the nonsensical argument.

And I give everyone here respect until they prove they don't deserve it. I have given you respect; I have read your argument, throught about it, questioned it, and have recieved no response from you because "I'm nonsensical".

Again, I said you were being disrespectful to everyone who had a different opinion. You refused to acknowledge any train of thought outside of your own. You were dismissing everyone's argument without even commenting. I attempted to question your numbers, and you refuse to even respond to me.

A-Rod hit 6 HR's / 20 RBI's during an eight day period in April. That is over 1/5 of his total production in these categories this season. I've never denied he is one hell of a fantasy baseball player and deserves his Top 3 rating, just that he appeared to have better production in games where there was perhaps less pressure on him. That is for example blow out wins or losses, or playing for a team no one expected to win like the Texas Rangers.


APPEARED is the key word in your argument. "A-Rod appeared to have better production in games where there was perhaps less pressure on him." This was your argument. I presented stats that disproved your theory. The close and late situations are the pressure situations, and he has good numbers in those situations. You were proved wrong, and fail to admit it.

A great deal of what he has done since has done nothing to change my mind on this.


It might help if you actually looked at what he's done.

Close and Late "Pressure" situations:

.327 BA
.484 OBP

After my initial point for discussion, at a later date and to attempt to substantiate my theory, I introduced stats when he came up in pressure type situations.

At this time it was not a significant sample size and that's why I haven't produced them again until now. Into August we now have a decent sample size and it shows very clearly to me anyway that A-Rod, unlike every other Top 12 hitters in the majors, performs better in less pressure type situations.


In May, you used stats that helped your argument. You made no mention of whether it was an adequate sample size. You made your argument, then left. When the discussion what brought back up, you used a different stat, because Alex's numbers greatly improved in the stat you had used in May. When blankman called you out on this, you replied it wasn't enough of a sample size.

But here's the catch: it doesn't matter how big the sample size was. You called A-Rod out on what he did THIS YEAR. He only had 40 or so at-bats THIS YEAR. You called him out on those 40 at-bats. Whether he had 40 or 200 is insignificant. You said he failed in those situations, and his numbers showed otherwise. When you call out a player on what he's done through May, you look at his numbers THROUGH MAY. How many ABs he had through then is insignificant, because you called him out with those numbers.

I don't believe in clutch. Every major leaguer is clutch from time to time. It is still very interesting to see these contrasting numbers and in my mind is certainly worthy of discussion. If you see this as simply A-Rod bashing and can contribute nothing further that is positive to the discussion, then stay out of the thread.


This discussion isn't about whether clutch exists or not. This is about you saying A-Rod gets all of his numbers in blowout games, and does nothing in pressure situations. My numbers proved your numbers wrong, and you have failed to acknowledge that. Bottom line.
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