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Top 12 power hitters.......interesting numbers comparison

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Postby wrveres » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:12 am

theclefe wrote:
wrveres wrote:
theclefe wrote:wrveres is like the suburbs.


? :-?

I don't get it?



Sprawling posts. ;-7

lol :-]
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Postby theclefe » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:22 am

superfly wrote:
theclefe wrote:But will you also take the extra outs when he fails to hit that homerun? 4 singles in four seprate games gives you a better chance of winning four games. A grand slam may seal a game, or make up a huge deficit, but if that means an out in another key situation... I take the small ball.


There's no way you can know the situation so you can only go by the RBI stats. Like I've said numerous times in this thread, the title of the thread is power hitters not small ball hitters.


I understand your point, but three doubles still produces an extra RBI and one less out with a good bat behind him. I assume he has Griffey behind him? Dunn forgets that and waits for a dinger at the expense of his team, where guys like Sheffield, Manny and others go after the ball.
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Postby wrveres » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:23 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:Wrveres, go check out that thread in the Game Commentary forum. You'll see that he was bashing Rodriguez using one stat early in the season, and later in the year when A-Rod was doing well in that category, he deemed it insignificant and moved onto another stat that helped his point.

And now he refuses to acknowledge my question, simply because he has no answer for it. If he had an answer, he would have posted it. Wrveres, I consider you to be a pretty fair and objective mind here at the Cafe, and you cannot possibly tell me I am off-base by saying what I am. I cannot believe the ignorance of NZF to pick and choose what stats he thinks are significant, and not even acknowledge anyone else's point of view.

BTW, sorry about the word. I thought it was one, I hear people use it all the time. Oh well, I learned something new today. Thanks for the correction.


I'll take your word for it ... I probably won't go read it though, since it is an agruement over Arod, and that seems pointless. He is the 2nd best player of our generation (25) ;-7 and so what if his hits with RISP/2outs in close/late situations against Foulke in May ... are down ..

I mean come on, its fricking "Kid Wonderful"

It has also been my experience that EVERYBODY picks and chooses certain stats to make their self seem right? Thats the beauty of baseball. Its a numbers game, and the numbers are endless. Heck some people got so bored with the thousands upon thousands of streaming numbers that they went and created more numbers to prove that your numbers were wrong.

Now only if anybody knew what the Saber heads were saying, they might be on to something. ;-D

edit: As for Irregardless... I used to use it all the time too. Its actually one of my favorite words. There is a years long cafe story behind it, but it just struck me funny when I saw it. no stress
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Postby RynMan » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:52 am

Moving house gives you plenty of time to think.

I have read several people pointing to OBP and SLUG as more relevant stats to talk about for A-Rod and these other hitters to compare them in these situations. I tend to think that NZF has correctly identified the best stat to use in his argument - Batting Average.

Think about it. OBP is basically BA with walks. When you have a runner in scoring position and you walk, sure you do perform well by not costing your team an out, but at the same time you havent performed by driving the runners in. Loaded bases are a different story because a walk directly helps your team's cause, however loaded bases are rarer.

If your argument is that A-Rod doesn't HIT as well wit runners in scoring position (i.e. get on base via a hit), than BA not OBP is a more appropriate statistic to use. OBP and SLUG correlate to runs scored, however we aren't talking about runs scored.....we are talking about individual performance in certain situations. I dont think its fair to dismiss BA in this situation as NZF merely selecting a statistic that best suits his argument (although I will admit Im not fimiliar with the previous thread), because to me iit seems as though BA would be a very good statistic to use - how many times has the guy got a hit with runners in scoring position and not. Walks are generally considered to be in large part a fault of the pitcher - as it is an outcome he has control of.
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Postby superfly » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:52 am

theclefe wrote:I understand your point, but three doubles still produces an extra RBI and one less out with a good bat behind him. I assume he has Griffey behind him? Dunn forgets that and waits for a dinger at the expense of his team, where guys like Sheffield, Manny and others go after the ball.


Three doubles only produces 9 RBIs rarely. It's usually around 7-8. Griffey also bats in front of Dunn, usually Casey or Aurilia bat behind Dunn. However, if you want to look at RBI/AB with RISP, we can do that. I picked out a few other prominent names for comparison.

This is RBI/AB with RISP:

Dunn: .553
Vlad: .517
A-Rod: .416
Manny: .714
Shef: .610
Pujols: .543
Miguel Cabrera: .430
Tejada: .449
C.Lee: .519
D.Lee: .602
Aramis: .398
Ortiz: .533
Sexson: .482

Dunn has a higher RBI/AB than everyone except Shef, D.Lee, and Manny. Dunn is comparable to both Shef and D.Lee and only Manny stands out from the crowd as an RBI machine.
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Postby wrveres » Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:30 am

superfly wrote:
theclefe wrote:I understand your point, but three doubles still produces an extra RBI and one less out with a good bat behind him. I assume he has Griffey behind him? Dunn forgets that and waits for a dinger at the expense of his team, where guys like Sheffield, Manny and others go after the ball.


Three doubles only produces 9 RBIs rarely. It's usually around 7-8. Griffey also bats in front of Dunn, usually Casey or Aurilia bat behind Dunn. However, if you want to look at RBI/AB with RISP, we can do that. I picked out a few other prominent names for comparison.

This is RBI/AB with RISP:

Dunn: .553
Vlad: .517
A-Rod: .416
Manny: .714
Shef: .610
Pujols: .543
Miguel Cabrera: .430
Tejada: .449
C.Lee: .519
D.Lee: .602
Aramis: .398
Ortiz: .533
Sexson: .482

Dunn has a higher RBI/AB than everyone except Shef, D.Lee, and Manny. Dunn is comparable to both Shef and D.Lee and only Manny stands out from the crowd as an RBI machine.


and there is a reason for that, but you keep chosing to ignore it.
A BB does not count as an AB, and since Dunn walks an insane amount of times with RISP, he would obviouslly have a higher pct of RBI's/AB. ;-D

Talk about coming up with stats to suit your arguement ;-7
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Postby wrveres » Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:34 am

RynMan wrote:Moving house gives you plenty of time to think.


Hope you are loving the new flat. ;-D
Ocean View?
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Postby wrveres » Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:49 am

Ok I just went and looked it up.

Adam Dunn has had 85 "At-Bats" with RISP.
91 other players have more "At-Bats" with RISP than Adam.
Cesar Izturis has had 85 "At-Bats" with RISP. :-o
Adam La Roche has had 85 "At-Bats" with RISP, and driven in just as many guys as Dunn with RISP, and he is not even a regular.


on top of that, Adam bats middle of the order on highest scoring team in the NL.

how can he have so few ABs with RISP?
How can that be? ;-7
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Postby baseballnewb » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:31 am

on top of that, Adam bats middle of the order on highest scoring team in the NL.


He batted 6th most of the year which isn't really middle of the order. He also walks a lot which helps the team in every situation. Any way you look at it you are wrong and just trying to find some stat to support your opinion when none of them do.

Dunn has a 659 SLG with RISP and a 605 without, he has a 259 avg with RISP and a 256 without. He's better in every way with RISP than without this year, not that it matters since those numbers average out over 3 years for all hitters since RISP is a useless stat.


Using your whipping boy Arod as an example, his career numbers with RISP are all within 5% of his career numbers without as are vlads and almost everyone on your list. The one exception is Manny and I think the reason for that is he has a bad attitude and his head isn't in the game a lot of the time when the AB doesn't count, just like he gets incredibly sloppy at fielding when his head isn't in the game.
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Postby theclefe » Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:51 am

baseballnewb wrote:
on top of that, Adam bats middle of the order on highest scoring team in the NL.


He batted 6th most of the year which isn't really middle of the order. He also walks a lot which helps the team in every situation. Any way you look at it you are wrong and just trying to find some stat to support your opinion when none of them do.



Not when they pay you to drive in runs, which is the context of this discussion.
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