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Steroids - is anyone still in denial?

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Postby RC » Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:12 pm

NYMetsIn2k4 wrote:
RC wrote:
NYMetsIn2k4 wrote:I was wondering... to anyone in here who is familiar with supplements such as 1-AD, M1T, or the more commonly known Androstene Dione, or any other Prohormone for that matter. My question is would these come back as Steroids if a test were taken? I know they do increase Testosterone production but are far far from Steroids, but they also just recently became part of Baseballs Banned List, along with Ephedra, etc. So I was wondering if there's a possibility that some of these players aren't taking Winny, EQ, Deca, HGH, etc... and just taking Prohormones(PH's)?


It's a good question, but unfortunately for Raffy, you can't test positive for Stanazolol and it's metabolites without taking the actual banned/controlled drug.

But there are often instances where an athlete can test positive for something like Nandralone (and it's metabolites) but ingest it through a supplement. It's more difficult now that prohormones are banned, because companies aren't producing them to be sold, but sometimes there's contamination. Other times, sleazy supplement companies will put prohormones and other non-label additives into a supplement to make it seem like it works better than the actual listed ingredients work.

But it's pretty rare that you'd find something like Winstrol (stanazolol) in a supplement because it's illegal for sale. If a supplement company has a prohormone in it's product and gets caught, they used to be able to plead to cross-contamination being the cause. But if an actual scheduled drug were in their protein powder, not only are they breaking a bunch of FDA rules, but the DEA would want to know how they got a hold of this. Big trouble.

But that's all moot now that 1) Raffy reportedly tested positive for Winstrol and 2) prohormones are banned for sale now, so they're not coming off the same production and processing lines like they used to.

Even if the players are taking Prohormones, they are banned and illegal as well as per Congress' new bill passed last year or the year before and MLB's drug policy. So, if they were on Prohormones, they're cheating just the same and they'll get caught.

Things like Androstenodiol convert to testosterone but are also anabolic on their own. Whether they cause you to test positive for Andro or if they cause a high epi-test score escapes memory. But Nor-Andro will cause you to test positive for Nor-testosterone (Nandralone) and fail.

My own personal view is that because Nor-Andro was widely produced and there have been many contamination problems and positive tests that have resulted, if an athlete tests positive for Nandralone or it's metabolites, the athlete was likely a victim of contaminated products because Nandralone takes 2 years to completely clear from the body and is therefore a poor choice for any athlete subject to random drug tests. Andro probably isn't detectable in smaller amounts because it already exists in the body and the contaminant amounts aren't supraphysiological most times.

That's not to say that there are likely masking agents that could hide a drug like nandralone, but obviously the masking agents aren't working every time. Another thing to consider is that BALCO probably isn't the only lab that producing designer steroids that governing bodies can't test for because they don't know that they exist.

Bottom line is that both pitchers and players are taking performance enhancers and just like the Olympics (where everyone's one something), so it's a level playing field.

Hope that answers some Q's.


Great Post! And it definetely helped answer some questions. I also agree that more/if not all athletes are taking something to enhance they're performance, especially in todays sports.


Thanks, glad to help.

Another problem with Baseball's current policy is they don't release what the players tested positive for.

It's funny though that Palmero tested positive for Stanazolol. I've always thought that drugs that effect the nervous system were better choices (Testosterone, for instance). That way, the drug improves your nervous system's reaction time and co-ordination so that you can react sooner and faster.

Stanazolol is used by track athletes because it doesn't cause the 'bloating' that Testosterone causes because there's less conversion to other hormones like Estrogen and Progesterone. So athletes stay leaner and gain more muscle as well as having an increase in recovery time. But there's little effect on reaction time and speed/co-ordination via nervous system stimulation, if I remember correctly.

So theroetically, Raffy could have been taking a drug that didn't even help him as much as others could have! But it stands to reason that he'd be able to maintain his longevity with the help of Stanazolol. But it was almost more of a holistic effect more than direct performance enhancement, much like HGH.

When I decided to get into Strength Coaching and Personal Training, everyone thought I was crazy for learning about steroids because they didn't think athletes took them. I guess we know the answer to that question now...

Incidentally, I've only ever tried prohormones because they seem to work just as well as any steroid (if you're buying a good product, which is easier said than done). But then Congress banned them. My choice was to stay away from steroids once Prohormones became illegal for a number of reasons. Others instead chose steroids as an alternative when they never would have if prohormones were available.

Congress making a big deal about Steroids in Baseball could have the same effect methinks.
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Postby josebach » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:05 pm

TB13 wrote:
Tokugawa wrote:Yeah I'm full of hate and what's the problem with that?


Need we have the "Lighten up, Francis" speech here?


Good "Stripes" reference.

Here's a funny one:

Howard J. Turkster: "I joined the army 'cause my father and brother were in the army. I thought I'd better join before I got drafted."

Sgt. Hulka: "Son, uh, there ain't no draft no more."

Howard J. Turkster: "There was one?"


:-D
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Postby Tokugawa » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:20 pm

YardBirds wrote:He has what most Americans call "Penis Envy". The only reason Japan has baseball is because of the occupation after WW2. Enjoy what we gave you and stop hating America.


This has nothing to do with anything, but thanks. A true patriot is someone who can see what is wrong with his country and who wishes to improve it. Not somone who hides.

Hiding is exactly what baseball is doing. Japan certainly wouldn't stand for this, they have something unknown to most American players which is something called pride, integrity and honour!
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Postby Tokugawa » Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:31 pm

Would like to hear Pete Rose's view on Palmiero and his hall of fame chances!
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Postby josebach » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:08 pm

Tokugawa wrote:
YardBirds wrote:He has what most Americans call "Penis Envy". The only reason Japan has baseball is because of the occupation after WW2. Enjoy what we gave you and stop hating America.


This has nothing to do with anything, but thanks. A true patriot is someone who can see what is wrong with his country and who wishes to improve it. Not somone who hides.

Hiding is exactly what baseball is doing. Japan certainly wouldn't stand for this, they have something unknown to most American players which is something called pride, integrity and honour!


What are you talking about? Who is hiding? Actually, nevermind.

You're right. Americans don't have pride, integrity or honour... AND we're hiding. No sense arguing. Now move along.
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Postby acsguitar » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:10 pm

This is silly...is anyone gonna stop watching baseball because people are getting busted for roids?


I'm not...I don't really care if they were or not actually....ahh well.
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Postby Irish » Wed Aug 03, 2005 6:59 pm

Tokugawa wrote:
YardBirds wrote:He has what most Americans call "Penis Envy". The only reason Japan has baseball is because of the occupation after WW2. Enjoy what we gave you and stop hating America.


This has nothing to do with anything, but thanks. A true patriot is someone who can see what is wrong with his country and who wishes to improve it. Not somone who hides.

Hiding is exactly what baseball is doing. Japan certainly wouldn't stand for this, they have something unknown to most American players which is something called pride, integrity and honour!


Yeah, just like they showed at Pearl Harbor!!!!

You're a shmuck.
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Re: Steroids - is anyone still in denial?

Postby Jbyrdo » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:49 pm

Tokugawa wrote:After the Palmeiro episode, I find it hard to believe that any wanker could be in any denial about the widespread use of roids in baseball.

Palmeiro's body is his job, crap doesn't just get in there accidentally, no matther how frigging dump you are.

Why was there a deal in the Balco case because it would have ruined US sports, mainly baseball and athletics, Jerome Young, Marion Jones perhaps even Michael Johnson all on steroids.

Baseball is a joke and all those people living in denial should shoot themselves.


Hey I have an idea, instead of people shooting him/herself for denying baseball is a joke, how about you shoot them for us! It is a shame everybody doesn't hold views like us. Anybody with a difference of opinion should surely be subject to the death penalty. In fact we can call you the Japanese enforcer of pride, integrity, and honor. After we clean up everybody that disagrees with us on baseball we can move onto other topics, like other sports like football, hockey, and basketball!


Yeah, I was being sarcastic.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:52 pm

Tokugawa, there's a way to make a coherent argument without sounding like an idiot. I suggest you try it, because alot more people will take you seriously. Attacking America for no good reason on forums that are probably pre-dominantly filled with Americans is not a smart move.
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Postby PlayingWithFire » Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:56 pm

Tokugawa wrote:
YardBirds wrote:He has what most Americans call "Penis Envy". The only reason Japan has baseball is because of the occupation after WW2. Enjoy what we gave you and stop hating America.


This has nothing to do with anything, but thanks. A true patriot is someone who can see what is wrong with his country and who wishes to improve it. Not somone who hides.

Hiding is exactly what baseball is doing. Japan certainly wouldn't stand for this, they have something unknown to most American players which is something called pride, integrity and honour!


Japanese Pride: I will kill myself before I surrender.
Japanese Honour: Pearl Harbour?
Japanese Integrity: don't even get me started

You are a true Hater :-t

Oh, I am sorry. Japan can't, will, and never did anything wrong. They just can't be wrong. I am sorry to hurt your feeling.

P.S.: don't get me started on WWII }:-)
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