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Need to be famous for "Hall of Fame"?

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Need to be dominating to make the Hall?

Poll ended at Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:39 pm

Yes
10
42%
No
14
58%
 
Total votes : 24

Postby davidmarver » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:12 pm

HOOTIE wrote:No one is claiming Manny isn't better. But it has as much bearing as all the tea in China. Manny isn't a 1b, and Palmeiro isn't a outfielder.

best 3 years win shares

Murray 33/31/31
Palmeiro 31/31/30

best 3 years ops+

Murray 159/156/156
Palmeiro 160/155/150

best 3 years rc/27

Murray 8.13/8.01/7.84
Palmeiro 10.02/8.30/8.09

They are real close in peak years. You like votes too much. You are biased against Palmeiro because of the roids issue. It doesn't matter what the stats are.

Your statistics are so flawed it is ridiculous; you CANNOT COMPARE PLAYERS FROM DIFFERENT ERAS. Doing so shows nothing whatsoever...show Murray compared to top players from his era and Palmeiro compared to top players from his era and that is a statistic comparison I consider worthy of using as a basis of player comparison.
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Postby blankman » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:26 pm

davidmarver wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:No one is claiming Manny isn't better. But it has as much bearing as all the tea in China. Manny isn't a 1b, and Palmeiro isn't a outfielder.

best 3 years win shares

Murray 33/31/31
Palmeiro 31/31/30

best 3 years ops+

Murray 159/156/156
Palmeiro 160/155/150

best 3 years rc/27

Murray 8.13/8.01/7.84
Palmeiro 10.02/8.30/8.09

They are real close in peak years. You like votes too much. You are biased against Palmeiro because of the roids issue. It doesn't matter what the stats are.

Your statistics are so flawed it is ridiculous; you CANNOT COMPARE PLAYERS FROM DIFFERENT ERAS. Doing so shows nothing whatsoever...show Murray compared to top players from his era and Palmeiro compared to top players from his era and that is a statistic comparison I consider worthy of using as a basis of player comparison.


David, thats exactly what OPS+ does. It takes the era exactly into effect because it compares him to his peers. Stats like this help make it so you CAN compare players of different eras.

Win Shares is another cross-era stat as far as I know. RC/27 may not be, but you could calculate a RC/27+ to compare him to the other players of his day.

Palmeiro's numbers place him as a sure-fire HOFer and its incredible that you just don't get that.

As someone you seems to think that only three great years can put you as one of the greatest players ever (your Gagne argument naming him a top-5 all-time closer), its incredible that you aren't calling Palmeiro better than Murray based on how those numbers that ARE cross-era favor Palmeiro- OPS+.

Its just impossible for anyone to have a debate with you. Your jumps in "logic" are simply dumbfounding and your stubborness is unparalleled. :-S
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Postby bigh0rt » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:30 pm

I wish they would use [AVG + (SLG - AVG) + (OBP - AVG)] as a replacement to OPS. It'd be a more accurate measure of batting, IMO.

Anyone agree? O:-)
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Postby davidmarver » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:32 pm

blankman wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:No one is claiming Manny isn't better. But it has as much bearing as all the tea in China. Manny isn't a 1b, and Palmeiro isn't a outfielder.

best 3 years win shares

Murray 33/31/31
Palmeiro 31/31/30

best 3 years ops+

Murray 159/156/156
Palmeiro 160/155/150

best 3 years rc/27

Murray 8.13/8.01/7.84
Palmeiro 10.02/8.30/8.09

They are real close in peak years. You like votes too much. You are biased against Palmeiro because of the roids issue. It doesn't matter what the stats are.

Your statistics are so flawed it is ridiculous; you CANNOT COMPARE PLAYERS FROM DIFFERENT ERAS. Doing so shows nothing whatsoever...show Murray compared to top players from his era and Palmeiro compared to top players from his era and that is a statistic comparison I consider worthy of using as a basis of player comparison.

As someone you seems to think that only three great years can put you as one of the greatest players ever (your Gagne argument naming him a top-5 all-time closer), its incredible that you aren't calling Palmeiro better than Murray based on how those numbers that ARE cross-era favor Palmeiro- OPS+.

If you looked at the two numbers that you said are cross era, then Murray actually still has a minute advantage over Palmeiro.
Its just impossible for anyone to have a debate with you. Your jumps in "logic" are simply dumbfounding and your stubborness is unparalleled. :-S

Way to add to the discussion. I love how you quote logic even though the word was never once in this thread. I can't believe someone who directly wouldn't answer a question (Quantrill, May/Redding) calls someone else stubborn.

Plain and simple, Palmeiro was never really that great; he does not deserve to be in the HOF.
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Postby davidmarver » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:37 pm

The Hall of Fame wrote:5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played

Palmeiro checklist:
Player's record - Sure
Playing ability - On the fence...not dominant in his era.
Integrity - None
Sportsmanship - Little at this point
Character - None
Contributions to his team(s) - His teams have never won anything.

The Hall of Fame wrote:6. Automatic Elections — No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.

Oh...you mean 500 homeruns and 3000 hits?

Sorry, but that's not a HOF player right there, using the HOF checklist.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:41 pm

davidmarver wrote:
The Hall of Fame wrote:5. Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played

Palmeiro checklist:
Player's record - Sure
Playing ability - On the fence...not dominant in his era.
Integrity - None
Sportsmanship - Little at this point
Character - None
Contributions to his team(s) - His teams have never won anything.

The Hall of Fame wrote:6. Automatic Elections — No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.

Oh...you mean 500 homeruns and 3000 hits?

Sorry, but that's not a HOF player right there, using the HOF checklist.


I don't want to get involved in this discussion, just bringing up a point. The first item on that list is far and away the most important. You can be a player with integrity, character, sportsmanship and contribute to your team but that doesn't mean you're getting in the Hall simply because you fit most categories on that list.

I'm not nessicarily stating my opinion, just bringing up a point.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:44 pm

davidmarver wrote:
The Hall of Fame wrote:6. Automatic Elections — No automatic elections based on performances such as a batting average of .400 or more for one (1) year, pitching a perfect game or similar outstanding achievement shall be permitted.

Oh...you mean 500 homeruns and 3000 hits?

Sorry, but that's not a HOF player right there, using the HOF checklist.


I think they meant 1 year accomplishments (.400 BA, perfect game, 4+ homeruns in a game, 20 strikeouts in a game, 30 wins in a season, 400 strikeouts in a season, etc.)

You can't get elected on one year of doing something like that. You need longevity is what I interpret that as. 3000 hits and 500 homeruns don't fit that bill. They are career achievments, not 1 year accomplishments.
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Postby blankman » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:53 pm

davidmarver wrote:
blankman wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:No one is claiming Manny isn't better. But it has as much bearing as all the tea in China. Manny isn't a 1b, and Palmeiro isn't a outfielder.

best 3 years win shares

Murray 33/31/31
Palmeiro 31/31/30

best 3 years ops+

Murray 159/156/156
Palmeiro 160/155/150

best 3 years rc/27

Murray 8.13/8.01/7.84
Palmeiro 10.02/8.30/8.09

They are real close in peak years. You like votes too much. You are biased against Palmeiro because of the roids issue. It doesn't matter what the stats are.

Your statistics are so flawed it is ridiculous; you CANNOT COMPARE PLAYERS FROM DIFFERENT ERAS. Doing so shows nothing whatsoever...show Murray compared to top players from his era and Palmeiro compared to top players from his era and that is a statistic comparison I consider worthy of using as a basis of player comparison.

As someone you seems to think that only three great years can put you as one of the greatest players ever (your Gagne argument naming him a top-5 all-time closer), its incredible that you aren't calling Palmeiro better than Murray based on how those numbers that ARE cross-era favor Palmeiro- OPS+.


If you looked at the two numbers that you said are cross era, then Murray actually still has a minute advantage over Palmeiro.


You didn't address the fact that you were wrong about being able comparing the two players. Pushing it off and saying "well, Murray was a tiny bit better in those numbers" does nothing for your argument but hinder it.
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Postby davidmarver » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:58 pm

blankman wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
blankman wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:No one is claiming Manny isn't better. But it has as much bearing as all the tea in China. Manny isn't a 1b, and Palmeiro isn't a outfielder.

best 3 years win shares

Murray 33/31/31
Palmeiro 31/31/30

best 3 years ops+

Murray 159/156/156
Palmeiro 160/155/150

best 3 years rc/27

Murray 8.13/8.01/7.84
Palmeiro 10.02/8.30/8.09

They are real close in peak years. You like votes too much. You are biased against Palmeiro because of the roids issue. It doesn't matter what the stats are.

Your statistics are so flawed it is ridiculous; you CANNOT COMPARE PLAYERS FROM DIFFERENT ERAS. Doing so shows nothing whatsoever...show Murray compared to top players from his era and Palmeiro compared to top players from his era and that is a statistic comparison I consider worthy of using as a basis of player comparison.

As someone you seems to think that only three great years can put you as one of the greatest players ever (your Gagne argument naming him a top-5 all-time closer), its incredible that you aren't calling Palmeiro better than Murray based on how those numbers that ARE cross-era favor Palmeiro- OPS+.


If you looked at the two numbers that you said are cross era, then Murray actually still has a minute advantage over Palmeiro.


You didn't address the fact that you were wrong about being able comparing the two players. Pushing it off and saying "well, Murray was a tiny bit better in those numbers" does nothing for your argument but hinder it.

Dude, lay off. You were wrong that Palmeiro's numbers are better than Murray's and you didn't see me discredit your argument anecdotally. Jesus, be more subtle about what you say or don't say it at all. All you do is continue to pick on me and it's getting pretty old. You don't see me barge into every single on of your arguments calling you an idiot, so don't do it to mine. Now if you care to actually argue on either side with numbers (perhaps?) or text definitions of a HOFer then feel free. Otherwise, please don't barrage every post I make from now on; what did I ever do to you? That's right...I made your 5K post when no one else did, 100 posts into your 5000. Sorry for doing that for you. Sheesh.
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Postby Tavish » Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:15 pm

How does Palmeiro do on the Keltner Test?

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

Not a chance, he plays in the era of Bonds, Griffey, and A-Rod.

2. Was he the best player on his team?
Yes in 1994, 1995 with Baltimore and 1999 in Texas he was the best player on his team. In other years he is overshadowed by the likes of Juan Gonzalez, Julio Franco, Roberto Alomar, Ivan Rodriguez, Alex Rodriguez, and Miguel Tejada.

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

No and no. There are a few years where he is the top 1B in the league but over the course of his career players like McGwire, Frank Thomas, and Jeff Bagwell were better players.

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Not really, his team made the playoffs in 3 seasons during his career. The 1997 playoff birth in Baltimore was one of the worst seasons in his professional career, the other two were both very good seasons for Palmeiro.

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?
Yes, if you consider his prime to be his mid-30s when he was at the height of his power/average production.

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
This is meant more for retired/eligible players but assuming he was retired and eligible at the moment, then yes. He was a better player than Rice and Santo who are probably the most qualified for the Hall and not in right now.

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?
3000 hits, 600 HR. Absolutely, every eligible member of either of those clubs is in.

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
Black Ink: Batting - 8 (263) (Average HOFer ~ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting - 183 (50) (Average HOFer ~ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting - 57.0 (34) (Average HOFer ~ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting - 156.0 (63) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Yes although not overwhelmingly.

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
He played in decent hitters parks in his career so he may not have been quite as good as his statistics.

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?
Right now, yes.

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

No MVP awards, one Top 5 finish. Many MVP-numbers seasons surrounded by players with even better MVP-numbers seasons.

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

4 All-Star Games, and probably deserved to go to a couple more. 4 All-Star games doesn't bode well in comparison to other Hall of Famers.

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
Probably the worst question in the test, but in the 3 years that Palmeiro was the best player on his team that team did not make the playoffs.

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?
I think his impact on the history of baseball is being written right now.

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

Pass. Ask this question 2 weeks ago and most people's answer would have been 1000% different.


Imagine that, he passes about half of the Keltner test. Not a shoe in HoF guy, not a impossible one. :~(
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