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Need to be famous for "Hall of Fame"?

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Need to be dominating to make the Hall?

Poll ended at Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:39 pm

Yes
10
42%
No
14
58%
 
Total votes : 24

Postby RyanK » Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:57 am

davidmarver wrote:Here's a list of what Palmeiro has led the league in:
1990 - Hits, Singles
1991 - Doubles
1993 - Runs



Funny how all this was before "steroids" so i guess he didnt need steriods to be good as you (i think) or kaisersoze said in the other thread...
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Postby davidmarver » Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:37 pm

RyanK wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Here's a list of what Palmeiro has led the league in:
1990 - Hits, Singles
1991 - Doubles
1993 - Runs



Funny how all this was before "steroids" so i guess he didnt need steriods to be good as you (i think) or kaisersoze said in the other thread...

Even without testing positive for steroid use, I wouldn't put him in the HOF. (By the way, 1992 is allegedly when he started using steroids, so runs would be after). The point I was making was that Raffy has led the league, or been the best at something almost never. He had one top five MVP season (in which he placed fifth) and never started an all-star game. A guy that far behind the elite in his era shouldn't be in the HOF.
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Postby HOOTIE » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:11 pm

davidmarver wrote:
RyanK wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Here's a list of what Palmeiro has led the league in:
1990 - Hits, Singles
1991 - Doubles
1993 - Runs



Funny how all this was before "steroids" so i guess he didnt need steriods to be good as you (i think) or kaisersoze said in the other thread...

Even without testing positive for steroid use, I wouldn't put him in the HOF. (By the way, 1992 is allegedly when he started using steroids, so runs would be after). The point I was making was that Raffy has led the league, or been the best at something almost never. He had one top five MVP season (in which he placed fifth) and never started an all-star game. A guy that far behind the elite in his era shouldn't be in the HOF.


Palmeiro was 1st in the AL in runs created in 99, and 3rd in 91. He ranks 17th all-time in runs created. In 99, he should have finished higher then 5th in mvp voting. He was 1st in runs created, 2nd in ops, 3rd in ops+, 2nd in total bases. But this whole argument he doesn't belong because he never lead a catergory is weak. Overall numbers (consistency) mean alot.
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Postby davidmarver » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:02 am

HOOTIE wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
RyanK wrote:
davidmarver wrote:Here's a list of what Palmeiro has led the league in:
1990 - Hits, Singles
1991 - Doubles
1993 - Runs



Funny how all this was before "steroids" so i guess he didnt need steriods to be good as you (i think) or kaisersoze said in the other thread...

Even without testing positive for steroid use, I wouldn't put him in the HOF. (By the way, 1992 is allegedly when he started using steroids, so runs would be after). The point I was making was that Raffy has led the league, or been the best at something almost never. He had one top five MVP season (in which he placed fifth) and never started an all-star game. A guy that far behind the elite in his era shouldn't be in the HOF.


Palmeiro was 1st in the AL in runs created in 99, and 3rd in 91. He ranks 17th all-time in runs created. In 99, he should have finished higher then 5th in mvp voting. He was 1st in runs created, 2nd in ops, 3rd in ops+, 2nd in total bases. But this whole argument he doesn't belong because he never lead a catergory is weak. Overall numbers (consistency) mean alot.

Yes, and Palmeiro has consistently not been dominant. Let me ask you this: what has Palmeiro added or contributed to baseball? He has made a mockery of the game in the past week and up until that point he had never solidified himself as a true, bonified star. I'd put Manny in before I consider to put Palmeiro in and that's even if Manny decides to retire tomorrow. I refuse to water down the HOF with players that were never big stars of their own time.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:40 am

davidmarver wrote:Yes, and Palmeiro has consistently not been dominant. Let me ask you this: what has Palmeiro added or contributed to baseball? He has made a mockery of the game in the past week and up until that point he had never solidified himself as a true, bonified star. I'd put Manny in before I consider to put Palmeiro in and that's even if Manny decides to retire tomorrow. I refuse to water down the HOF with players that were never big stars of their own time.


You don't have to be dominent to make HOF. You seem to be ignoring this fact. Overall numbers will get you in. Eddie Murray, Phil Niekro are classic examples. What has Palmeiro added? 6 most extra base hits, 9th most hrs, 17th most runs created. All 16 guys ahead of him are in HOF, and just about the top 35 in runs created are in except active players. Manny has no bearing on Palmeiro. Palmeiro isn't watering down nothing. He created more runs then quite a few legends. MLB has made a mockery of the game with it's drug policy, before, and even now.
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Postby davidmarver » Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:55 am

HOOTIE wrote:You don't have to be dominent to make HOF. You seem to be ignoring this fact. Overall numbers will get you in. Eddie Murray, Phil Niekro are classic examples.

Murray's numbers, in his era, are much more dominant than Palmeiro's are in this era. Murray finished in the top five of MVP voting five straight seasons...Palmeiro did it once in his entire career.
Manny has no bearing on Palmeiro.

You're right, but Manny is far better than Palmeiro. Seeing as you love to use runs created, I'll use that statistic. Ramirez has finished in the top eight (first twice) in runs created in each of the past eight seasons. Palmeiro never had such a run and he also has only finished first in that category once. In Adjusted OPS, Palmeiro is the 22nd active player...Manny is 19th all-time. Palmeiro is 26th and 25th active for SLG% and OPS, Manny 8th and 9th ALL TIME in those categories. (Don't you love how non-accumulative statistics GREATLY favor Manny). I won't even begin to talk about Manny's WS MVP or the seven silver slugger awards he's won (compared to Palmeiro's three even though he's been around longer).
Palmeiro isn't watering down nothing.

If he isn't watering down nothing that means he is watering down something. Glad to see you agree.
He created more runs then quite a few legends. MLB has made a mockery of the game with it's drug policy, before, and even now.

Sure, but Palmeiro chose to abuse it; MLB's drug policy wouldn't be a mockery if players like Palmeiro CHOSE not to take steroids.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:31 am

No one is claiming Manny isn't better. But it has as much bearing as all the tea in China. Manny isn't a 1b, and Palmeiro isn't a outfielder.

best 3 years win shares

Murray 33/31/31
Palmeiro 31/31/30

best 3 years ops+

Murray 159/156/156
Palmeiro 160/155/150

best 3 years rc/27

Murray 8.13/8.01/7.84
Palmeiro 10.02/8.30/8.09

They are real close in peak years. You like votes too much. You are biased against Palmeiro because of the roids issue. It doesn't matter what the stats are.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:20 pm

I think the numbers alone are what should get you in. It's not a players fault if he's not famous. If he puts up 500 homeruns and 3000 hits, no matter how well known your name is, you should get in.

That said, I would not vote Raffy in. Simply because he's a cheating dirtbag who, as marver said, has made a mockery of the game. He's a liar and a cheater and would not have put up those numbers without the aid of performance enhancing drugs.
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Postby rotterdam_82 » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:26 pm

j_d_mcnugent wrote:
Tavish wrote:Without a doubt he was a better player than Raffy, but not dominant. The quote I was replying to stated that if you weren't a dominant player then you shouldn't be in the Hall.


unfortunately i am not old enough to have seen aaron play but i looked at the stats and the amount of times he was in the top 10, in the top 5 and leading the league in offensive categories i cant believe that he wasnt a dominant player. 8 times in the top 5 in mvp voting and not dominant?


And an all star 21 years straight 8-o
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Postby Tavish » Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:39 pm

rotterdam_82 wrote:
j_d_mcnugent wrote:
Tavish wrote:Without a doubt he was a better player than Raffy, but not dominant. The quote I was replying to stated that if you weren't a dominant player then you shouldn't be in the Hall.


unfortunately i am not old enough to have seen aaron play but i looked at the stats and the amount of times he was in the top 10, in the top 5 and leading the league in offensive categories i cant believe that he wasnt a dominant player. 8 times in the top 5 in mvp voting and not dominant?


And an all star 21 years straight 8-o


Rod Carew made 18 straight All Star Games, Cal Ripken Jr made 19 straight, Reggie Jackson made 13 of 14. All of them were great players, none of them were dominant players. The All-Star game is extremely similar to the Gold Glove. Once you win one, it takes something out of the ordinary not to win the next one.
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