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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:09 am

stogusmaximus wrote:
Lofunzo wrote:Completely disagree. In your scenario, you are basically rewarding those that can get online at the right times. If you draft and manage your team well, you won't need as many moves. I like some sort of cap, either limiting moves or IP. That way, the best team should win. ;-D


In my scenario, the GM who does the most research, and puts the most effort into improving his team, and with a little luck will win. If you don't want or have the time to improve your drafted Lowell with a red-hot Ensberg, then you will most likely lose.

Those that don't have the time to play in a league where there are unlimited daily transactions, should join a "Set and Forget" league where you draft your team, and then come back at the end of the season to see who won.


There is a big difference between being on the ball by knowing to drop Lowell for Ensberg and having 150 moves before August. Huge difference. 1 is a smart manager. The other is borderline churning, depending on what the other 149 moves are for. It takes talent to pick up a rising star. It takes no talent to do 2-3 daily add/drops in order to dominate the countable cats.
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Postby bigh0rt » Wed Aug 03, 2005 7:02 am

stogusmaximus wrote:One more point.

If the game is not about transactions, why have a "Draft, Trade, Keeper" forum? Why have a "Analyze/Rate My Team" forum, or a "Injuries & Player Updates" forum? These forums are here to help people improve their teams, through transactions.

Why not just have
"This years draft", "Next years draft" and "Who to Start/Bench"


You've actually gotten several good reasons. You've just chosen to ignore them and simply twist your counter-argument into "Well, why have transactions at all then, durrrr?" which was never suggested to begin with. Whatever floats your boat. You enjoy your style and I'll enjoy mine. I'll never think yours is anything but poor managing and a 'minor league' style of GMing a fantasy team due to the sheer lack of intelligence it takes to read these boards and stay up until 3 am; things of that nature.

So, you've gotten your good reasons, by several people too, so let's drop this whole denial game, and at least accept that there's plenty of good reasons not to make more than a minimal number of moves, as others have accepted your reasoning, whether or not they agree with it.
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:02 am

stogusmaximus wrote:
Gang Green wrote:
kingctb27 wrote:I've seen this work for teams in h2h leagues that go on to win the championship. :-°


OK, fine, I overstated that a bad manager could win a league by churning a roster. I'm guilty as charged. However, all of you have stated, "as long as there are IP or GP limits, I have no problems with unlimited transactions." I believe in Stogusmaximus's league, there aren't any limits in IP, GP or transactions. He's made over 100 transactions. What then? There has to be some sort of limit to maintain structure and fairness. I always take my league seriously and when we started out, we had no limits either. I would get home from work, jump on the computer to check on my team and find that 3 or 4 guys (who were in college at the time) had devoured up all the FA's with an ounce of upside. I argued for IP or GP limits for the upcoming year but most of the league had A.D.D. and didn't want to do it. So we settled on a transaction limit. Some type of order is needed.


No trans limit, no IP limit, no GP limit.

8 managers we all work/worked at the same company, playing in a private league. We have playing the same 8 managers for 4 or 5 years now. We are all computer programmers, we sit in front of the computer for 9, 10, 11 hours a day. Why does this mean there is no structure, and no fairness?


Take a look at my draft

V. Guerrero,R. Oswalt,B. Lidge,É. Rentería,M. Loretta,V. Wells,R. Clemens,R. Sexson,K. Foulke,M. Lowell,C. Pavano,L. Berkman,S. Green,B. Inge,C. Carpenter,T. Hafner,Od. Pérez,M. Morris,P. Konerko,B. Wilkerson,A. Jones,W. Williams,J. Suppan,J. Lane

Is that a poor draft? I don't think so, not great, but by no means poor.

Look at who I have kept.

V. Guerrero,R. Oswalt,B. Lidge,V. Wells,R. Clemens,R. Sexson,K. Foulke,L. Berkman,C. Carpenter,T. Hafner,A. Jones




Am I a poor manager for cutting bait on Pavano, Lowell, and Rentería?

Am I a poor manager for trading Od. Pérez, M. Morris, and P. Konerko and others for ARam, Mora, Roberts, Turnbow and IRod?

Am I a poor manager for replacing Loretta, and Foulke?

Am I a poor manager for jumping on C. Young, Capuano, Duke, Street, Roberts, and Francoeur?



There are many ways to play this game. Some people prefer to spend the off season getting draft ready, others prefer to play the WW. Some people are "Set and Forget" while others are constantly tweaking. Some people make decisions based on previous years and projections while others play who's hot now. While there are many ways to play, there is one common goal and that is to win.


I am just voicing my opinion. I'm not trying to tell you how to run a team but please don't mislead the jury here. No one has said to do the "Popeil" method of team management. There are always moves to be made. Things happen. That said, by my count, you still have 11 of your original 24 players drafted. Now, that is somewhere around 13 new players, give or take for extra transactions and DL players. This is what you wrote before:

stogusmaximus wrote:I am at 110, and in 3rd place.

2nd has 126
1st has 146


There is a big difference between 13 and 110. Again, I understand that there are throw-ins in deals, guys get cold, etc. but 110 transactions doesn't indicate that you are finding the hot hand. 110 transactions indicates that you are trolling the WW looking for pitchers with the little symbol next to their name. 110 transactions equals about 1 per day. Maybe it's just me but that seems to devalue the draft.
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Postby Gang Green » Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:36 am

Lofunzo wrote:
stogusmaximus wrote:
Gang Green wrote:
kingctb27 wrote:I've seen this work for teams in h2h leagues that go on to win the championship. :-°


OK, fine, I overstated that a bad manager could win a league by churning a roster. I'm guilty as charged. However, all of you have stated, "as long as there are IP or GP limits, I have no problems with unlimited transactions." I believe in Stogusmaximus's league, there aren't any limits in IP, GP or transactions. He's made over 100 transactions. What then? There has to be some sort of limit to maintain structure and fairness. I always take my league seriously and when we started out, we had no limits either. I would get home from work, jump on the computer to check on my team and find that 3 or 4 guys (who were in college at the time) had devoured up all the FA's with an ounce of upside. I argued for IP or GP limits for the upcoming year but most of the league had A.D.D. and didn't want to do it. So we settled on a transaction limit. Some type of order is needed.


No trans limit, no IP limit, no GP limit.

8 managers we all work/worked at the same company, playing in a private league. We have playing the same 8 managers for 4 or 5 years now. We are all computer programmers, we sit in front of the computer for 9, 10, 11 hours a day. Why does this mean there is no structure, and no fairness?


Take a look at my draft

V. Guerrero,R. Oswalt,B. Lidge,É. Rentería,M. Loretta,V. Wells,R. Clemens,R. Sexson,K. Foulke,M. Lowell,C. Pavano,L. Berkman,S. Green,B. Inge,C. Carpenter,T. Hafner,Od. Pérez,M. Morris,P. Konerko,B. Wilkerson,A. Jones,W. Williams,J. Suppan,J. Lane

Is that a poor draft? I don't think so, not great, but by no means poor.

Look at who I have kept.

V. Guerrero,R. Oswalt,B. Lidge,V. Wells,R. Clemens,R. Sexson,K. Foulke,L. Berkman,C. Carpenter,T. Hafner,A. Jones




Am I a poor manager for cutting bait on Pavano, Lowell, and Rentería?

Am I a poor manager for trading Od. Pérez, M. Morris, and P. Konerko and others for ARam, Mora, Roberts, Turnbow and IRod?

Am I a poor manager for replacing Loretta, and Foulke?

Am I a poor manager for jumping on C. Young, Capuano, Duke, Street, Roberts, and Francoeur?



There are many ways to play this game. Some people prefer to spend the off season getting draft ready, others prefer to play the WW. Some people are "Set and Forget" while others are constantly tweaking. Some people make decisions based on previous years and projections while others play who's hot now. While there are many ways to play, there is one common goal and that is to win.


I am just voicing my opinion. I'm not trying to tell you how to run a team but please don't mislead the jury here. No one has said to do the "Popeil" method of team management. There are always moves to be made. Things happen. That said, by my count, you still have 11 of your original 24 players drafted. Now, that is somewhere around 13 new players, give or take for extra transactions and DL players. This is what you wrote before:

stogusmaximus wrote:I am at 110, and in 3rd place.

2nd has 126
1st has 146


There is a big difference between 13 and 110. Again, I understand that there are throw-ins in deals, guys get cold, etc. but 110 transactions doesn't indicate that you are finding the hot hand. 110 transactions indicates that you are trolling the WW looking for pitchers with the little symbol next to their name. 110 transactions equals about 1 per day. Maybe it's just me but that seems to devalue the draft.


Thank you Lofunzo. ;-D Someone who can put it in black and white what we have been unsuccessfully trying to say for 5 pages.
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Postby Chicago RedSox » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:36 am

My league has no limit on transactions and no limit on innings. There is some WW scouring for spot starters, but since we're an 8x8 h2h it usually backfires on you. If I spot start a couple guys I might increase my IP, W, and K's, but I also increase my ER, ERA, WHIP, and BB. I still feel compelled to stick to my regular pitchers, with an occasional good-matchup start.

Our pitching counts IP, W, SV, ER, BB, K, ERA, WHIP...
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Postby Lofunzo » Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:59 pm

Chicago RedSox wrote:My league has no limit on transactions and no limit on innings. There is some WW scouring for spot starters, but since we're an 8x8 h2h it usually backfires on you. If I spot start a couple guys I might increase my IP, W, and K's, but I also increase my ER, ERA, WHIP, and BB. I still feel compelled to stick to my regular pitchers, with an occasional good-matchup start.

Our pitching counts IP, W, SV, ER, BB, K, ERA, WHIP...


You brought me to another point.......This is different in H2H and roto leagues. Roto leagues are pretty useless if you don't have a cap of some sort. Another thing to do is leave everything uncapped and just use more ratios. Either way, most countable cats are helped by churning. Adding losses, ER, HA, etc. does help against this, though. ;-D
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Postby garf112 » Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:04 pm

I refuse to argue with anyone that is in a league with less than 12 teams, unless it is an AL or NL only league. Call me elitist, but, come on, there is not a ton of strategy involved in these leagues, usually.

I will put my two cents in for those of you who play in real fantasy leagues. 100+ moves at this point in the season is beyond ridiculous. No IP/GP max is totally unrealistic. How many innings does a real baseball team pitch in a year? Around 1400. How many games does a team get at a given position? 162. Any other way makes it an unrealistic simulation. And hard to actually project who will help your team. Thus rendering the draft, other than the first few rounds, useless.
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Postby discodv05 » Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:06 pm

yeah i have 70 but i have week changes, not day to day so its not as easy. just as long as your churn isnt absurd then its ok. mine is mostly bench players, not pitchers looking for good starts.
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Postby Chicago RedSox » Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:47 pm

I'm in third place and have made 57 moves, the guy in 2nd made 50, and the guy in first made 6. First place had an amazing draft. This being my first fantasy team, had a crappy draft. And I've worked really hard to put together a pretty decent team. I don't have any A-rods, or Pujols', or Clemens', but I've managed to stay near the top all season by riding hot streaks, good scouting, and dropping guys with subpar performance. I had to work 10x harder then the first place guy mostly because he came out well from a draft that's as much luck as it is skill.
I only have 7 of my original 22 drafts. It's not "realistic" as garf112 says it should be, but neither is roto.
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Postby Matthias » Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:45 pm

unless you're in my league, i don't care what place you're in or how many moves you all have made, quite frankly. or what the guy in the lead is doing. or what your neighbor is doing. or what his dog reccommends.

i think this argument is heated because we like to think we're so smart and far-seeing based on how we do in fantasy baseball (i'll let slide the fact how many posts i see on the draft/waiver/trade board and assume that you evaluate all your talent yourself as well as don't use draft guides... or really read the cafe except for this post, for that matter). and whatever way we succeed doing it, we think that's what really takes the utmost skill. and so we have to defend the method because, in the process, we're defending our own ego.

personally, i can be objective. my team is in the crapper.

i say draft day should be more important than the rest of the season. it's more difficult to project out stats, adjustments to a new team/league/ballpark, just everything, really, a year in advance than a day. i'm sorry. it is. if you picked up d. lee in the beginning of the season because you thought he was the right age/point in his career/had a good lineup around him/etc. bully for you. if you picked up giambi two weeks ago or justin morneau three days ago... you're not being clever. you're putting a call out to captain obvious.

churning is bad. transactions should be limited. and none of this makes you a better person than the other guy. or worse. just not him.
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