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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:04 am

Yeah, the no offense era. Nobody was hitting .300 in the 70's. The no offense era was the first couple of years of Rose's career. There was plenty of offense in the 70's and plenty of .300 hitters.

Not a great player.
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Postby uucrook3d » Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:00 am

SouthBronxBombers wrote:Yeah, the no offense era. Nobody was hitting .300 in the 70's. The no offense era was the first couple of years of Rose's career. There was plenty of offense in the 70's and plenty of .300 hitters.

Not a great player.


well atleast in this post you didnt mention "not being a power hitter" or "only batted .303".... it was like a effing broken record. come up with some research/statistics that support your claim other than your obvious bias for rose, then you will be able to post something relevant. so far this has been the most one sided arrgument. it truly is like reading an argument with someone's little brother...
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Postby Madison » Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:33 am

nmarq8 wrote:Regarding what the original post was about, guillen is a classless player involved in a classless act. But chipper runs his mouth and thinks he's god, so in a way it's a little bit of karma.

But that was nowhere near what sosa did! that was just a ridiculous uncalled for spike to the chest. if anytime's a good time to start a brawl, barajas should have gone after sosa right then.


Guillen's slide was nothing more than an attempted take out of Chipper. Didn't even slide close to the bag. Not cool at all. :-t

Sosa's wasn't cool with me either. Spikes up, and cut Barajas's arm with them? Not cool at all either. :-t

I wouldn't be surprised to see either one take one in the earhole the next time the teams hook up. Totally classless from both of them. :-t
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Postby theclefe » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:24 am

Madison wrote:
nmarq8 wrote:Regarding what the original post was about, guillen is a classless player involved in a classless act. But chipper runs his mouth and thinks he's god, so in a way it's a little bit of karma.

But that was nowhere near what sosa did! that was just a ridiculous uncalled for spike to the chest. if anytime's a good time to start a brawl, barajas should have gone after sosa right then.


Guillen's slide was nothing more than an attempted take out of Chipper. Didn't even slide close to the bag. Not cool at all. :-t

Sosa's wasn't cool with me either. Spikes up, and cut Barajas's arm with them? Not cool at all either. :-t

I wouldn't be surprised to see either one take one in the earhole the next time the teams hook up. Totally classless from both of them. :-t


Guillen play was fine. chipper was practially lying on the ground in a stretch. he should have been more prepared and know the situation. Why doesn't anyone here remember you break up the double play at all costs. Jose was with arms reach of the base and his cleats wouldn't have caught if chipper wasn't practically on his knees. This play is all Chipper's fault. If Guillen was trying to spike him, he would have gone for the ankle or higher on the thigh. Very rarely do you try to spike someone with the toe of your cleat barely catching the underside of his thigh. It just doens't make sense and the hype is a product of the Sosa incident and Jose's reputation.
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Postby Madison » Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:52 am

theclefe wrote:Guillen play was fine. chipper was practially lying on the ground in a stretch. he should have been more prepared and know the situation. Why doesn't anyone here remember you break up the double play at all costs. Jose was with arms reach of the base and his cleats wouldn't have caught if chipper wasn't practically on his knees. This play is all Chipper's fault. If Guillen was trying to spike him, he would have gone for the ankle or higher on the thigh. Very rarely do you try to spike someone with the toe of your cleat barely catching the underside of his thigh. It just doens't make sense and the hype is a product of the Sosa incident and Jose's reputation.


This has nothing to do with nothing other than I saw the slide tons of times on replays.

If Chipper had been any closer to the ground, he would have taken the spikes to the groin. Guillen's spikes were a foot in the air at the very least, and pointed upwards. That's a clean slide?

Not to mention that had he slid straight into the bag, he never would have touched Chipper. Instead, his toe caught Chipper's uniform (could have been much worse) and he crashed into him. I don't call that clean in the least. It's reckless, dangerous, and someone could have wound up hurt from it. Had Chipper actually been hurt, everyone would be screaming for Guillen's head and he would probably be looking at a suspension for that slide. Just because Chipper wasn't hurt, that doesn't make the slide acceptable, or ok. It was nothing more than a cheap shot.

As to breaking up double plays, sure, at second base I can see breaking up a double play, but even then, the guys don't go in spikes up. It's just not right.
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Postby theclefe » Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:53 am

Madison wrote:
theclefe wrote:Guillen play was fine. chipper was practially lying on the ground in a stretch. he should have been more prepared and know the situation. Why doesn't anyone here remember you break up the double play at all costs. Jose was with arms reach of the base and his cleats wouldn't have caught if chipper wasn't practically on his knees. This play is all Chipper's fault. If Guillen was trying to spike him, he would have gone for the ankle or higher on the thigh. Very rarely do you try to spike someone with the toe of your cleat barely catching the underside of his thigh. It just doens't make sense and the hype is a product of the Sosa incident and Jose's reputation.


This has nothing to do with nothing other than I saw the slide tons of times on replays.

If Chipper had been any closer to the ground, he would have taken the spikes to the groin. Guillen's spikes were a foot in the air at the very least, and pointed upwards. That's a clean slide?

Not to mention that had he slid straight into the bag, he never would have touched Chipper. Instead, his toe caught Chipper's uniform (could have been much worse) and he crashed into him. I don't call that clean in the least. It's reckless, dangerous, and someone could have wound up hurt from it. Had Chipper actually been hurt, everyone would be screaming for Guillen's head and he would probably be looking at a suspension for that slide. Just because Chipper wasn't hurt, that doesn't make the slide acceptable, or ok. It was nothing more than a cheap shot.

As to breaking up double plays, sure, at second base I can see breaking up a double play, but even then, the guys don't go in spikes up. It's just not right.


The point of the slide IS to take out the players legs. That is not dirty. It is done a few times every game at second base and it is a legitimate slide if the runner is still able to reach the base. If he slides outside of that reach, then it is interference. That really cannot be argued. The situation called for it too. With a poor bunt that the defense was quick enough to handle and get the lead runner means there is a decent chance they they can double off the batter too. You can't argue that simply because he slid at Chipper the play is dirty, since it is commonplace, just not at 3rd.

As for the cleats, and this is the part that is arguable. From what I saw Jose jumped into the slide, but at the actual point of impact the heel of his foot seemed just off the ground and his foot vertical. the toe caught the underside of chipper, turning back the top of the foot to make it seem more intentional than it actually was. I firmly believe he was trying to go through chippers legs and take them out with his body, but because Chipper stetched so low, he caught the fabric.

Is there are a stream or photo of the play? I tried search a little but wasn't able to find anything.
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Postby Madison » Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:35 am

theclefe wrote:The point of the slide IS to take out the players legs. That is not dirty. It is done a few times every game at second base and it is a legitimate slide if the runner is still able to reach the base. If he slides outside of that reach, then it is interference. That really cannot be argued. The situation called for it too. With a poor bunt that the defense was quick enough to handle and get the lead runner means there is a decent chance they they can double off the batter too. You can't argue that simply because he slid at Chipper the play is dirty, since it is commonplace, just not at 3rd.


I'm not trying to argue if the slide is legal or not, just that it doesn't sit right with me when a player is clearly not going for the bag, has his spikes up, and is trying to take out another player from behind. For me, that's not clean, not clean at all. At the very least, don't go in spikes up. Not to mention that third basemen are not usually prepared for tactics like that. Secondbasmen and shortstops are used to people trying to take them out. Chipper wasn't even facing the runner or had any idea exactly where the runner was. Basically blindsided Chipper, tried to take him out, and had the spikes up. Just not what I call clean at all. Legal? Yeah. Clean? No. Big difference in the two things.

theclefe wrote:As for the cleats, and this is the part that is arguable. From what I saw Jose jumped into the slide, but at the actual point of impact the heel of his foot seemed just off the ground and his foot vertical. the toe caught the underside of chipper, turning back the top of the foot to make it seem more intentional than it actually was. I firmly believe he was trying to go through chippers legs and take them out with his body, but because Chipper stetched so low, he caught the fabric.


Spikes looked up to me all the way through the slide. Sure the toe caught and bent his foot backwards a bit, but the spikes were already facing up when they caught Chipper's uniform.

Since you at least admit the spikes were vertical, and if it's a clean slide simply to try to break up the double play, then why is it ok for the spikes to be vertical? So he hits Chipper from behind, spikes first? Not trying to argue, but just curious as to why you think it's ok. His spikes ripped the back of Chipper's leg of his uniform, so he was in fact behind Chipper. Just curious as to why you think it's ok for a takeout slide to be spikes first from behind like that. I don't see how intentionally trying to cause injury is ok, but maybe you can shed some light on that since I don't see how anyone getting spiked from behind wouldn't be injured, and/or why that would be considered ok by anyone.

theclefe wrote:Is there are a stream or photo of the play? I tried search a little but wasn't able to find anything.


I saw it enough times on Sportscenter. I did a quick search though and came up dry too.
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Postby theclefe » Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:15 am

Madison wrote:I'm not trying to argue if the slide is legal or not, just that it doesn't sit right with me when a player is clearly not going for the bag, has his spikes up, and is trying to take out another player from behind. For me, that's not clean, not clean at all. At the very least, don't go in spikes up. Not to mention that third basemen are not usually prepared for tactics like that. Secondbasmen and shortstops are used to people trying to take them out. Chipper wasn't even facing the runner or had any idea exactly where the runner was. Basically blindsided Chipper, tried to take him out, and had the spikes up. Just not what I call clean at all. Legal? Yeah. Clean? No. Big difference in the two things.


That is not Jose's fault. His job is to break up the double play, regardless of what base it is at. It only seemed from behind because of Chipper's improper body position. I think Lack of awareness and his poor positioning by chipper is what made this play look dirtier than it actually was.


Madison wrote:Spikes looked up to me all the way through the slide. Sure the toe caught and bent his foot backwards a bit, but the spikes were already facing up when they caught Chipper's uniform.

Since you at least admit the spikes were vertical, and if it's a clean slide simply to try to break up the double play, then why is it ok for the spikes to be vertical? So he hits Chipper from behind, spikes first? Not trying to argue, but just curious as to why you think it's ok. His spikes ripped the back of Chipper's leg of his uniform, so he was in fact behind Chipper. Just curious as to why you think it's ok for a takeout slide to be spikes first from behind like that. I don't see how intentionally trying to cause injury is ok, but maybe you can shed some light on that since I don't see how anyone getting spiked from behind wouldn't be injured, and/or why that would be considered ok by anyone.


The foot was vertical, meaning the spikes were faced forward.

Again, I don't think he was intentionally trying to injure Chipper. It seemed he was trying to slide through chipper and take out his legs with his body. Being right handed, naturally, chipper stretched with his left leg exposing his backside. Generally, a person doesn't stretch until the ball is thrown, so he was most likely stradeling the bag when Jose made the decision to slide hard.

Of course, I am going from memory so I am assuming a few things. Because we don't have any imagery, agruing the cleating is futile. minus that, I still do think the play was clean.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug= ... 05&prov=ap

Look how far Ford is off the bag, and notice the top foot. while the foot is not vertical, the spikes are facing forward similar to Jose's.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug= ... 05&prov=ap

According to your previous quote, a slide like this would be considered dirty. Granted, his spikes are not up, but begin kicked in the shin is better?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug= ... 07&prov=ap

I think this is the closest example of Guillens slide. It was a hard, straight on slide with simliar foot position and height. With how low Chipper stretched, a slide like this could have easily caught his leg and not be intentional.

All these are part of the game, as I feel the Guillen one was. I think it just got overhyped because of the names involded, the location and Sosa's ninjakick the night before.
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Postby Madison » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:20 am

theclefe wrote:
Madison wrote:I'm not trying to argue if the slide is legal or not, just that it doesn't sit right with me when a player is clearly not going for the bag, has his spikes up, and is trying to take out another player from behind. For me, that's not clean, not clean at all. At the very least, don't go in spikes up. Not to mention that third basemen are not usually prepared for tactics like that. Secondbasmen and shortstops are used to people trying to take them out. Chipper wasn't even facing the runner or had any idea exactly where the runner was. Basically blindsided Chipper, tried to take him out, and had the spikes up. Just not what I call clean at all. Legal? Yeah. Clean? No. Big difference in the two things.


That is not Jose's fault. His job is to break up the double play, regardless of what base it is at. It only seemed from behind because of Chipper's improper body position. I think Lack of awareness and his poor positioning by chipper is what made this play look dirtier than it actually was.


The spikes facing up are what made it look the dirtiest to me. Had be spikes been down, I probably wouldn't have said a word.


theclefe wrote:
Madison wrote:Spikes looked up to me all the way through the slide. Sure the toe caught and bent his foot backwards a bit, but the spikes were already facing up when they caught Chipper's uniform.

Since you at least admit the spikes were vertical, and if it's a clean slide simply to try to break up the double play, then why is it ok for the spikes to be vertical? So he hits Chipper from behind, spikes first? Not trying to argue, but just curious as to why you think it's ok. His spikes ripped the back of Chipper's leg of his uniform, so he was in fact behind Chipper. Just curious as to why you think it's ok for a takeout slide to be spikes first from behind like that. I don't see how intentionally trying to cause injury is ok, but maybe you can shed some light on that since I don't see how anyone getting spiked from behind wouldn't be injured, and/or why that would be considered ok by anyone.


The foot was vertical, meaning the spikes were faced forward.

Again, I don't think he was intentionally trying to injure Chipper. It seemed he was trying to slide through chipper and take out his legs with his body. Being right handed, naturally, chipper stretched with his left leg exposing his backside. Generally, a person doesn't stretch until the ball is thrown, so he was most likely stradeling the bag when Jose made the decision to slide hard.

Of course, I am going from memory so I am assuming a few things. Because we don't have any imagery, agruing the cleating is futile. minus that, I still do think the play was clean.


http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug= ... 05&prov=ap

Look how far Ford is off the bag, and notice the top foot. while the foot is not vertical, the spikes are facing forward similar to Jose's.


Crosby's 3 feet away and standing. Jose's foot was higher than that, and the spikes were higher up than that. This photo isn't close for those two reasons.

theclefe wrote:http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug= ... 05&prov=ap

According to your previous quote, a slide like this would be considered dirty. Granted, his spikes are not up, but begin kicked in the shin is better?


Well, if a player has to choose between a bruise and being ripped up by spikes (and all legal of course ;-7 ), don't you think any sane person would prefer the bruise? Bruises are one thing, being shredded by spikes is another. Again, had this been the slide, I wouldn't have said anything.

theclefe wrote:http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug= ... 07&prov=ap

I think this is the closest example of Guillens slide. It was a hard, straight on slide with simliar foot position and height. With how low Chipper stretched, a slide like this could have easily caught his leg and not be intentional.

All these are part of the game, as I feel the Guillen one was. I think it just got overhyped because of the names involded, the location and Sosa's ninjakick the night before.


Again, not close. Pic was taken at eye level, yet you can see the cleat is pointed down, and definitely not verticle. There's no way he spikes Young unless it's on the foot. Guillen's foot was much higher and the spikes were up. Huge difference in the two and not comparable.

I have no issues with any of those slides pictured. What bothers me is when the spikes are up. It's more of just a scare tactic at second base and most baserunners move their foot at the last second in order to make sure they don't injure the secondbasemen. Guillen's slide was nothing like those plays. He came in spikes up, from behind, and spiked Chipper. Luckily he only got the uniform, but it could have been much worse, and he should count his lucky stars that he didn't actually hurt Chipper. That would have been a very messy situation for him to be in. Just because he didn't hurt Chipper, doesn't make me look the other way though, it was still a dirty slide in my eyes.
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Yes doctor, there will be a war.
Yes doctor, there will be blood.....
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Postby theclefe » Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:32 am

Madison wrote:
theclefe wrote:http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/photo?slug= ... 07&prov=ap

I think this is the closest example of Guillens slide. It was a hard, straight on slide with simliar foot position and height. With how low Chipper stretched, a slide like this could have easily caught his leg and not be intentional.


Again, not close. Pic was taken at eye level, yet you can see the cleat is pointed down, and definitely not verticle. There's no way he spikes Young unless it's on the foot. Guillen's foot was much higher and the spikes were up. Huge difference in the two and not comparable.


At the point of impact, I really don't think his foot was any higher than Shea's. i'm going to search a bit more for a photo, but thats about it from me. I enjoyed the disccussion.
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