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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Sat Jul 30, 2005 10:51 am

So Julio Franco is one of the greats of the game? Rusty Staub? They played a loooonnnnggg time, too. Manny Mota too, I guess.

Again, if he is such a great hitter, explain the .303 lifetime batting average, with no power. Great hitters with no power don't hit barely over .300.

Average at best in all other aspects of the game, no power and a batting average of just over .300 does not make an all time great. Not even if you played for 23 years.
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Postby jblank » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:52 am

Dude you just have no clue whatsoever about what defines a great ballplayer. You should be embarassed to come onto a message board like this and make the statements you did. You dont break Ty Cobb's hit record by merely being average, nor do you break any other career records by merely being "decent". You dont have a 44 game hitting streak by being merely a marginal player, as you seem to believe. At this point, I honestly doubt how much you really know about the games history.

Personally, I will just let Rose's records, accomplishments, and statistics speak for themselves:

From Wiki:

Peter Edward Rose, Sr. (born April 14, 1941 in Cincinnati, Ohio), nicknamed Charlie Hustle, is an American former player and manager in Major League Baseball who played from 1963 to 1986, best known for his many years with the Cincinnati Reds. Rose, a switch hitter, is the all-time major league leader in hits (4256), games played (3562) and at bats (14,053). He won three World Series rings, three batting titles, one Most Valuable Player Award, two Gold Gloves, the Rookie of the Year Award, and made 18 All-Star appearances at an unequalled four different positions (2B, OF, 3B, 1B).
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Sat Jul 30, 2005 12:10 pm

Yeah, what you personally doubt really means a lot to me. It ranks right up there with my concern about the boogeyman under the bed.

Cobb was a great hitter, Rose was not.

All you have to do is explain how such a great hitter has a lifetime average of just over .300. What was Cobb's again?

No power, average at best at every other part of the game besides hitting singles, and a lifetime average of barely over .300. Hardly a great of the game.

Care to explain how such a great hitter, with no power, only has a lifetime ba of only .303?

Average talent parlayed over a long period of time does not make one a great player. Just like Palmeiro is not an all time great, but he has great numbers.

At no time was Rose considered the best player on his team, much less the best player in baseball, and only in perhaps one or two years would he have even cracked the top 25 in the game. If you are not a great player in any single year, how can you be an alltime great? He had one year which could be considered a great year,. 1969, and 3 others that were very good, 1968, 1973, and 1979. To be one of the all time greats, you need more than a bunch of average or very good years. You need great years, and he just does not have them.
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Postby jblank » Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:01 pm

ONLY .303??????? During an era when offense was down? Adjusted to today, that would probably be .320 or more.

Dude, power does not equal greatness. Tony Gwynn was a great hitter, but you wont see him on any career home run lists. Mark McGwire was a great home run hitter, but cant be classified as a great "hitter" overall.

Then you say this morsel of intelligencia:

If you are not a great player in any single year, how can you be an alltime great?

Thats complete and utter bu****it! Rose was the MVP in '73, and the World Series MVP in '75. At a minimum, twice, when it counted the most, he was the best there was. I am not saying he is the greatest of all time, not even in the top 20, but Rose was a great hitter, that is undeniable, and anyone who knows baseball will agree, and appreciate what he did and when he did it.

Let me leave you with a quote from Sparky Anderson, someone I assume you will believe, as I do, that has some clout as far as knowledge of the game:

He is Cincinnati. He's the Reds.

-Sparky Anderson, Hall of Fame manager
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Postby SouthBronxBombers » Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:05 pm

MVP one year does not a great player make. And yes, if you don't hit for power, hitting .303 is not a big deal. It is not like Rose played in a dead ball era. Being MVP of a WS does not a great player make.

When the only thing you have to claim the mantle of greatness for is hitting, then yes, you need to do better than a career .303 average.

I could not care less what Sparky Anderson said.

Was Dale Murphy an all time great? He had more MVP awards than Rose. Certainly better defensively, a better baserunner, a better arm and and a ton more power. So he must be an all time great two, since he had an MVP. Heck, Zoilo Versailles had one. He muist be an alltime great too.
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Postby jblank » Sat Jul 30, 2005 7:37 pm

SouthBronxBombers wrote:MVP one year does not a great player make. And yes, if you don't hit for power, hitting .303 is not a big deal. It is not like Rose played in a dead ball era. Being MVP of a WS does not a great player make.

When the only thing you have to claim the mantle of greatness for is hitting, then yes, you need to do better than a career .303 average.

I could not care less what Sparky Anderson said.

Was Dale Murphy an all time great? He had more MVP awards than Rose. Certainly better defensively, a better baserunner, a better arm and and a ton more power. So he must be an all time great two, since he had an MVP. Heck, Zoilo Versailles had one. He muist be an alltime great too.


.303 DURING THE NO OFFENSE ERA OF BASEBALL Jesus man, think about the era in which he played for just a second....SHEESH.

I'm not even gonna argue this any more with you. You dont know crap about the game, or its history, or the contribution that people like Rose, or even Cal Ripken, made to the game, nor do you seem to have the ability to discern what it is that makes a great ballplayer. There is a helluva lot more to the game than hitting for power.

Come back to the argument after you do some research.
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:37 pm

Does anyone remember back when this thread used to be abot Jose Guillen spiking Chipper Jones? I miss those days...
Roger Angell: I was talking with Bob Gibson and I said: 'Are you always this competitive?' He said: 'Oh, I think so. I got a three-year old daughter, and I've played about 500 games of tic-tac-toe with her and she hasn't beat me yet.'
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Postby nmarq8 » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:54 pm

I'm from california so i guess I represent the west of this argument:

I just read all 5 pages (!) of this pete rose argument and it's a joke. The only thing I question southbronx about his view towards longevity is when you see re-runs of lou gehrig giving his famous speech about ending his career early due to disease did you clap and say "well good, at least he won't taint his #'s by foolishly playing beyond his prime"?

The thing that I'll always admire a guy like pete rose for is/was his work ethic. you're right, he wasn't the most talented player ever, but he worked so hard that he made up for it. maybe he did do certain things to glorify his own standing, but who doesn't. name one player who doesn't these days and I'll name at least 50 who do. Off the field he was a true a**hole, but that's off the field, not on. Sheffield has some 10 illegitimate kids scattered around MLB cities, but does that make him a bad ball player? And stop comparing pete rose to power hitters, he never was one.

Set your personal views of pete rose's life aside regarding him as a person and acknowledge that he was one of the best hitters of all time. #'s speak volumes, and you don't have any that prove your point.
Last edited by nmarq8 on Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby nmarq8 » Sat Jul 30, 2005 8:57 pm

Regarding what the original post was about, guillen is a classless player involved in a classless act. But chipper runs his mouth and thinks he's god, so in a way it's a little bit of karma.

But that was nowhere near what sosa did! that was just a ridiculous uncalled for spike to the chest. if anytime's a good time to start a brawl, barajas should have gone after sosa right then.
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Postby raiders_umpire » Sat Jul 30, 2005 9:05 pm

i always considered rose a good to very good ball player that did 2 things fairly well:::: hustled and got on base in front of some nice offenses..... i only got to see the tail end of roses career due to my age,,, but i did love to see him hustle all over the field.... and would i have him on my team in 2005 if i was a manager... you bet i would take him on my team,,, just dont know what position i would play him at though......
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