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Postby linberg » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:09 pm

Yeah I agree with that. That's why I included the info about his walk totals (anyone have the raw number?).
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Postby KaiserSoze » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:10 pm

One of the best pitchers of all time, and right along Pedro and Clemens as the best of our time.
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Postby raiders_umpire » Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:04 pm

he is one of the top 3 pitchers i have ever seen pitch....him, clemens, and carlton would be the top 3.... even though his "stuff" did not compare to the other 2,,,, i would still want him on my team.... maddux brought a lot more to the table than just a almost guaranteed win every 5th day... he from what i have heard is a absolute great teammate to have....... overall he should be in the top 10 pitchers easily imo.....
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Postby Rkiivs » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:16 pm

All these accolades are well deserved and yet he won't be unanimously voted in. In fact, there's never been anyone voted in unanimously.

I'd still like to see the the HOF ballots be made public after voting. Let these knuckleheads be held accountable.
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Postby Tavish » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:42 pm

The Loveable Losers wrote:He wasn't a superstar pitcher for very many years but that's not Maddux's claim to fame anyways.

He was in the top 5 for the Cy Young award for 7 consecutive years, including the 4 straight years he won it. If thats not a superstar for very many years then I don't know what is.


Only pitcher in history (so I've been told) to get 300 Wins, 3000 Ks and <1000 walks.


Yes he is, although Fergie Jenkins came pretty close.

Has a pitcher ever been more consistent than this guy? I agrue no. His consecutive seasons w/ at least 15 Ws streak is AMAZING. 2nd best pitcher of this generation (behind Clemens). One of the top 10 of all time. Sure fire future HOFer.


The only modern pitcher I would think of putting ahead of Maddux in terms of consistency is Warren Spahn.
As great (tremendous/oustanding/exceptional) as Maddux has been, he isn't a top 10 pitcher All-Time. He isn't very far from it though. The problem I have calling him a top 10 pitcher is that I would consider him the 3rd greatest pitcher of the Second Live Ball Era (Pedro and Clemens).
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Postby The Loveable Losers » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:44 pm

He was in the top 5 for the Cy Young award for 7 consecutive years, including the 4 straight years he won it. If thats not a superstar for very many years then I don't know what is.


I should have qualified what I meant by a lot of years. Those 7 consecutive years he was definitely what I would call a superstar. But that's less than half of his 20 year career. Guys like Clemens/Pedro have had very few years as a non-superstar pitcher. Maddux has had several more years where you wouldn't put him in the Cy Young award debate. That doesn't detract at all from what he's done though and honestly that 1995 season (19-2 1.63era 0.81whip 7.77k/9 0.99w/9) was one of the most insane stat lines I think I've ever seen. When he was at his peak he was definitely in the same discussion with Clemens or Pedro at their peak. He just wasn't at his peak as long as they were (in fact, one could argue that Clemens is STILL at his peak :D).
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Postby Tavish » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:54 pm

Guys like Clemens/Pedro have had very few years as a non-superstar pitcher. Maddux has had several more years where you wouldn't put him in the Cy Young award debate.


Career wise they are all about the same. Maddux got Cy Young votes 9 of his 19 seasons (47%), Clemens 11 of his 21 seasons (52%) and Pedro in 7 of his 13 seasons (54%). I definitely agree though that Maddux had fewer seasons where he was considered a super-star. I think a great deal of that came from his relatively slow start (compared to Clemens), from pitching in a SuperStation market instead of a super-star market (like Boston), and not striking out 10 guys a game.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:12 am

Tavish wrote:As great (tremendous/oustanding/exceptional) as Maddux has been, he isn't a top 10 pitcher All-Time. He isn't very far from it though. The problem I have calling him a top 10 pitcher is that I would consider him the 3rd greatest pitcher of the Second Live Ball Era (Pedro and Clemens).


Tavish, no RJ? I like Clemens/ RJ as the best 2 modern pitchers.
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Postby Tavish » Thu Jul 28, 2005 1:24 am

HOOTIE wrote:
Tavish wrote:As great (tremendous/oustanding/exceptional) as Maddux has been, he isn't a top 10 pitcher All-Time. He isn't very far from it though. The problem I have calling him a top 10 pitcher is that I would consider him the 3rd greatest pitcher of the Second Live Ball Era (Pedro and Clemens).


Tavish, no RJ? I like Clemens/ RJ as the best 2 modern pitchers.


Well there is no modern pitcher I would put ahead of Pedro, the injury in 2001 really hurt his legacy though. Assuming he played that year like the years before and after you would be looking at a guy who was the best pitcher in his league for six consecutive seasons. A league that included Clemens and RJ.

I should have had RJ in the list, I would put him right behind Pedro and Clemens with Maddux being the 4th. I think I'm on record somewhere in the Cafe arguing that RJ is the greatest LHP ever, so it wouldn't be right for me to leave him off the list.
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Postby wrveres » Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:18 am

we used to have a rule in my NL only ..

"You can't win unless you have Maddux"
And that actually held true for about 6 seasons in a row. The winner always had the professor. It made for some interesting bidding wars too ...

But,
Even with his streak of 15 plus wins ..
Even with all of his k's ...
and even with all of his hardware and accolades, the stat that still blows me away is that he could/would go an entire month without walking a batter. Thats amazing to me ...


Get along with your bad ass self 'doggie'
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