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MANNY WANTS OUT..... AGAIN

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Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:14 pm

Yoda wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Yoda wrote:Economics 101. Manny's price tag makes him virtually worthless in real life. No one would be willing to give up anything useful for him and his monster contract. That is why the Red Sox can't trade him not because they don't want to. Period.


Asanine statement. Here's the top 25 paying contracts of 2005:

1 Rodriguez, Alex $ 26,000,000
2 Bonds, Barry $ 22,000,000
3 Ramirez, Manny $ 22,000,000
4 Jeter, Derek $ 19,600,000
5 Mussina, Mike $ 19,000,000
6 Bagwell, Jeff $ 18,000,000
7 Clemens, Roger $ 18,000,000
8 Sosa, Sammy $ 17,000,000
9 Piazza, Mike $ 16,071,429
10 Jones, Chipper $ 16,061,802
11 Johnson, Randy $ 16,000,000
12 Brown, Kevin $ 15,714,286
13 Hampton, Mike $ 15,125,000
14 Park, Chan Ho $ 15,000,000
15 Schilling, Curt $ 14,500,000
16 Giambi, Jason $ 13,428,571
17 Dreifort, Darren $ 13,400,000
18 Thome, Jim $ 13,166,667
19 Abreu, Bobby $ 13,100,000
20 Jones, Andruw $ 13,000,000
21 Sheffield, Gary $ 13,000,000
22 Walker, Larry $ 12,666,667
23 Helton, Todd $ 12,600,000
24 Griffey Jr, Ken $ 12,500,000
25 Guerrero, Vladimir $ 12,500,000

Virtually every name on there has been traded, or discussed in trade talks, in the last few years. And the few that haven't (say, Jeter and Bonds) would be discussed if anybody thought they coud be available (up to the end of last season, anyways).

The question isn't the size of the contract: it's the value that you extract out of it. And given Manny's torrid hitting the past two seasons, there is no sense in which he is "worthless." For that, look at the crap roster that Isaiah has assembled for the Knicks.


Manny is immovable unless they absorb another retarded contract. Only an idiot would trade players like Reyes and Wright for Manny in today's market.


What major players with crazy contracts have been traded on that list? Let's see. A-Rod, Randy Johnson, Sammy Sosa, Kevin Brown, Curt Schilling.

Seems to me that 3 out of the 5 people on that list were traded to none other than the YANKEES. Rodriguez, Johnson and Brown were all sent to New York because New York was willing to take their contracts, and pay them even more money in extensions if need be (Randy's case). The Yankees are an exception, as I said before. They haven't cared in the past how much money they spend.

And the only reason that there are so many outrageous contracts there is because of the market in which those contracts were created. Nearly everyone with an outrageous contract (north of 15 million) was signed when the market was ridiculous. These were the years when A-Rod got 25 mill, Manny 22, Jeter 19, Mussina 19, Chipper 16, Brown 15, Sosa 17, Hampton 15.

The market was very high then. Was Jeter worth 19 million? Hell no. But he signed for that much, so everything was inflated. Look at the superstars signed in the last few years, Vlad, Sheff, etc. Vladimir is every bit as good as A-Rod and is better than Manny, yet he got HALF of what Rodriguez makes. It's all according to the market.
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Postby Matthias » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:15 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:I didn't realize Texas was giving A-Rod to Boston for nothing!! :-B


According to Yoda, that would be the proper price for Rodriguez who has an even more bloated contract than Manny.

But the waivers was before talks between the Red Sox and Rangers had heated up: at the time the Sox just knew that had to dump payroll in order to deal. Later, it became a Manny for Rodriguez swap.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:21 pm

Matthias wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:I didn't realize Texas was giving A-Rod to Boston for nothing!! :-B


According to Yoda, that would be the proper price for Rodriguez who has an even more bloated contract than Manny.

But the waivers was before talks between the Red Sox and Rangers had heated up: at the time the Sox just knew that had to dump payroll in order to deal. Later, it became a Manny for Rodriguez swap.


Thanks for contradicting yourself. A minute ago you say that they put Manny on waivers ONLY because it would allow them to free up money for Rodriguez, and now you say the waiver thing was before the A-Rod talks. Way to retract your statement. ;-D

And the reason Rodriguez was traded was because he was traded to the NEW YORK YANKEES. The Yankees were willing to spend the extra cash to land him. The Red Sox would not take A-Rod's entire salary, even with giving up Manny's. That is the sole reason why Rodriguez is not on the Boston Red Sox right now. Boston wouldn't spend the extra cash, the Yankees would. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, it's just the way it happened.

Examples of huge contracts getting moved to anywhere but a team like the Yankees are few and far between. The A-Rod case is not very relavent in this debate.
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Postby Matthias » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:31 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Matthias wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:I didn't realize Texas was giving A-Rod to Boston for nothing!! :-B


According to Yoda, that would be the proper price for Rodriguez who has an even more bloated contract than Manny.

But the waivers was before talks between the Red Sox and Rangers had heated up: at the time the Sox just knew that had to dump payroll in order to deal. Later, it became a Manny for Rodriguez swap.


Thanks for contradicting yourself. A minute ago you say that they put Manny on waivers ONLY because it would allow them to free up money for Rodriguez, and now you say the waiver thing was before the A-Rod talks. Way to retract your statement. ;-D


No: I said it was before the talks had heated up. The Sox knew they were going to go after him, but the thought was to give up cheaper prospects, since Hicks' whole motivation in the deal was to give up salary. So the Sox plan was to unload Manny, free up cash, and then land Rodriguez. Step by step enough? If not, google. You can piece together the chronology from the news reports (although, no, the NY Post does not count as "news" ... adventures in journalism, maybe).

BronXBombers51 wrote:Examples of huge contracts getting moved to anywhere but a team like the Yankees are few and far between. The A-Rod case is not very relavent in this debate.


Right. Heaven forbid we talk about one of the other high-priced players and them getting traded and whether that makes sense. Because that forces the issue of either: Rodriguez is even more untradeable or worthless or Manny is not. That's really this whole mish-mash has come down to.

But dumping salary only becomes valuable if you have one of two scenarios:
(1) your owner wants to squeeze profit out of the team; or
(2) you have other high-priced talent which you would rather have with the money you're paying.

Given that John Henry has proven that although he has limits, his number one priority is winning, we can say the Sox are in no hurry to dump Manny for reason #1. And given the scarcity (under six) other players on MLB rosters who possess the skills that Manny does, it's unlikely they want to dump him for reason #2. So, no, the Sox are not going to unload Manny for a fresh shipment of grapefuit softballs. And that's been my point.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:47 pm

Matthias wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Examples of huge contracts getting moved to anywhere but a team like the Yankees are few and far between. The A-Rod case is not very relavent in this debate.


Right. Heaven forbid we talk about one of the other high-priced players and them getting traded and whether that makes sense. Because that forces the issue of either: Rodriguez is even more untradeable or worthless or Manny is not. That's really this whole mish-mash has come down to.


To the Mets, and most other teams, A-Rod and his $25 million salary is just as worthless as Manny when it's going to take Jose Reyes or Wright to get him. I never argued that. Jeter is just as worthless as well when you factor in his $19 million salary. I'm not excusing the Yankee players and saying they aren't economically worthless to other teams because of their salaries, I'm just saying that you cannot expect the Mets to give you Reyes for Manny, and have them pay Manny's contract. And that is because the Mets are not the Yankees. Nobody does business like the Yankees. The Red Sox are the closest thing, yet even they refused to pay extra cash to bring A-Rod to town. The Yankees did it gladly, not only with A-Rod, but with RJ and Kevin Brown. I'm not saying the Yankees could expect superstars for A-Rod but the Red Sox can't for Manny. Neither one of them can, because both those players carry ridiculous contracts.

But dumping salary only becomes valuable if you have one of two scenarios:
(1) your owner wants to squeeze profit out of the team; or
(2) you have other high-priced talent which you would rather have with the money you're paying.

Given that John Henry has proven that although he has limits, his number one priority is winning, we can say the Sox are in no hurry to dump Manny for reason #1. And given the scarcity (under six) other players on MLB rosters who possess the skills that Manny does, it's unlikely they want to dump him for reason #2. So, no, the Sox are not going to unload Manny for a fresh shipment of grapefuit softballs. And that's been my point.


Option one is obvioulsy wrong because everyone knows how much John Henry wants to win. Just looking at his payroll tells you he isn't interested in profit. I agree with you there.

I disagree with point number 2. Less than 6 players possess the skills of Manny Ramirez? Maybe hitting skills, but are you counting defense? What about pitchers? The Red Sox can't use that extra money on pitching help?

The market is drastically changed. This isn't 2001. In 2001, A-Rod, Manny, Mussina and Jeter all got deals richer or equal to 19 million dollars. Prior to 2004, Vladimir Guerrero (better than Ramirez in probably every single facet of the game) got 12.5 million dollars.

So you're telling me the Red Sox wouldn't like to dump Manny and his 22 million dollars, and use that cash on two players? In today's day and age, you can go out and get a player like Gary Sheffield, and still have 10 million left over to spend on a top-tier pitcher. Are you telling me that wouldn't be in the Red Sox best interest? Don't make me laugh. #2 is exactly the reason why the Red Sox would be willing to either trade or waive Manny Ramirez. You can get much more talent today for 22 million dollars than you could have in 2001.
Last edited by BronXBombers51 on Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby StlSluggers » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:49 pm

gofish wrote:I predict Manny to the fish in a shocker! O:-)

For Burnett!!!

:-D
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Postby StlSluggers » Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:51 pm

Yoda wrote:Are you serious? LOL yeah ONLY 3 years at $22,000,000!!! I don't care if he hits 70 HRs, his salary is crippling.

Even Pujols doesn't make that much money.

:-°
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Manny

Postby bigjimblue » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:21 pm

Manny is a very tempermental player. Last year he pouted during a Yankees series and wouldn't play even though he wasn't hurt. He has always wanted to be a Yankee, but I don't see Boston trading him to them. However, Manny could pull an end around and go somewhere else first!
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Postby blankman » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:29 pm

IMO, Manny's going nowhere and likely never will with that contract. The only team that could be willing to pay his salary is the New York Yankees and I can't imagine that the two teams will ever trade with each other again (at least not in the next 3 yrs of Manny's contract).
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Postby Yoda » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:35 pm

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Matthias wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Examples of huge contracts getting moved to anywhere but a team like the Yankees are few and far between. The A-Rod case is not very relavent in this debate.


Right. Heaven forbid we talk about one of the other high-priced players and them getting traded and whether that makes sense. Because that forces the issue of either: Rodriguez is even more untradeable or worthless or Manny is not. That's really this whole mish-mash has come down to.


To the Mets, and most other teams, A-Rod and his $25 million salary is just as worthless as Manny when it's going to take Jose Reyes or Wright to get him. I never argued that. Jeter is just as worthless as well when you factor in his $19 million salary. I'm not excusing the Yankee players and saying they aren't economically worthless to other teams because of their salaries, I'm just saying that you cannot expect the Mets to give you Reyes for Manny, and have them pay Manny's contract. And that is because the Mets are not the Yankees. Nobody does business like the Yankees. The Red Sox are the closest thing, yet even they refused to pay extra cash to bring A-Rod to town. The Yankees did it gladly, not only with A-Rod, but with RJ and Kevin Brown. I'm not saying the Yankees could expect superstars for A-Rod but the Red Sox can't for Manny. Neither one of them can, because both those players carry ridiculous contracts.

But dumping salary only becomes valuable if you have one of two scenarios:
(1) your owner wants to squeeze profit out of the team; or
(2) you have other high-priced talent which you would rather have with the money you're paying.

Given that John Henry has proven that although he has limits, his number one priority is winning, we can say the Sox are in no hurry to dump Manny for reason #1. And given the scarcity (under six) other players on MLB rosters who possess the skills that Manny does, it's unlikely they want to dump him for reason #2. So, no, the Sox are not going to unload Manny for a fresh shipment of grapefuit softballs. And that's been my point.


Option one is obvioulsy wrong because everyone knows how much John Henry wants to win. Just looking at his payroll tells you he isn't interested in profit. I agree with you there.

I disagree with point number 2. Less than 6 players possess the skills of Manny Ramirez? Maybe hitting skills, but are you counting defense? What about pitchers? The Red Sox can't use that extra money on pitching help?

The market is drastically changed. This isn't 2001. In 2001, A-Rod, Manny, Mussina and Jeter all got deals richer or equal to 19 million dollars. Prior to 2004, Vladimir Guerrero (better than Ramirez in probably every single facet of the game) got 12.5 million dollars.

So you're telling me the Red Sox wouldn't like to dump Manny and his 22 million dollars, and use that cash on two players? In today's day and age, you can go out and get a player like Gary Sheffield, and still have 10 million left over to spend on a top-tier pitcher. Are you telling me that wouldn't be in the Red Sox best interest? Don't make me laugh. #2 is exactly the reason why the Red Sox would be willing to either trade or waive Manny Ramirez. You can get much more talent today for 22 million dollars than you could have in 2001.


Useless to argue further. The guy doesn't understand that no one in his right mind would ever consider trading a 22-23 year old prospects making $300k for a 32 year old with a $60M price tag.

The only way Manny will be traded is if another team is looking to dump salary. I'm pretty sure his contract is backloaded also which means in today's market, the chances of Manny going anywhere for anyone is zero to none unless the Sox decide to pay him to play for another team. But since he is still performing at a high level, it's probably best for them to keep him rather than get rid of him.
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