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The ideal Roto scoring categories?

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The ideal Roto scoring categories?

Postby evil_beaver_dp » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:15 pm

With all the sabermetrics work that is really proving itself today, I think there needs to be an industry wide reevaluation of the roto baseball standards. IMO, a 7x7 scoring system can keep the traditional categories and add just a couple categories that incorporate much more of a hitter's valuable attributes and more accurately value good setup men in the bullpen. I'd love to see a move to standardize these categories...

Hitters: BA, HR, RBI, SB, R, OBP, SLG
Pitchers: ERA, WHIP, W, S, K, HLD, OPS-against

This would place some value on BB, 2B, and 3B for hitters which are not directly valued in traditional formats, and pitchers like K-Rod and Lidge would be much more valuable to a fantasy team, just like they are on a real team, even before they get the closer role on their team.

Anyone with me on this?
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Postby great gretzky » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:43 pm

why wouldn't you just have ops for hitters?

I am not sure if you need OPS against, wouldn't that be a double dip, considering era, and whip contribute to that?

If it were me, I'd eliminate holds and have hitters OPS.

I think that is a more worthy cat than average. It rewards bonds etc, and I think that is a good thing. Although I guess it devalues ichiro to some extent.

but the thing that I like about roto is that to some extent, the categories are somewhat exclusive, if related.

I only REALLY got into baseball through Roto, so I think as a game, it stands alone. Gettign better at it requires viewership, but viewership doesn't guarantee success. Even if it is flawed from a baseball persepctive, from a game perspective, I think a good roto league is as good as it gets. I mean yea, you need your projections, team knowledge, scouting reports. But given the categories, and how disproportiante saves and steals can be, it makes for a dynamic econimic and negotiation type game. I think given that, we can tolerate some shortcomings in "baseball accuracy".

But like I said, I think OPS should be the stat.
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Postby tmoney » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:11 pm

That would just complicate things for an average fantasy player, and it might keep beginners from participating. For the average fantasy player, making projections/draft sheets would become much more complicated and less people might get involved in that as well. I personally enjoy looking into slg, obp, ops, and other interesting statistics, but Im not sure if a good amount of the roto population really cares, and I would not personally like a change after many years of 5x5.
If you are looking for a little variety, I would recommend trying a points league where you can include categories like 3b, bb, OPS, ha, and so on. Or just create a custom league.
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Re: The ideal Roto scoring categories?

Postby matmat » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:24 pm

evil_beaver_dp wrote:
Hitters: BA, HR, RBI, SB, R, OBP, SLG
Pitchers: ERA, WHIP, W, S, K, HLD, OPS-against


Awful idea.
you are quadruple counting hits, hextuple (?) counting HR... if you are going to be using OBP and or SLG why bother with BA and HR?
keeping things 5x5 is a lot nicer, so might as well change things to
RBI, SB, R, OBP and SLG... or maybe even better
RBI, SB, R OPS (4 cats)

as for pitching... if you are going to include OPSA, why bother with WHIP? makes no sense to me.
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Postby great gretzky » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:30 pm

frankly, if I had MY druthers, I'd like a hybrid league.

Roto is GREAt for those who keep on it and love it. But it gets disheartening when you are way out of it in August.

I'd love a situation where there was a head to head element combined with roto -- say a 4.5 by 4.5.

Anything where people can still have a reason to keep involved would be fine by me.

The team with the most "wins" gets the top score, on down.

Or give something like a ten point bonus to the h 2 h winner and a modest payout for that winner. Anything to keep people into it.

the object is fun -- and even if the cats aren't "perfect" -- the cats as they stand give a nice cross section of abilities, and keep people playing/watching.
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Postby evil_beaver_dp » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:15 pm

I couldn't agree more with the hybrid roto/h2h idea. In fact, that's the type of league I've played in for the past 5 years or so. We have half the pot go to winners of the season-long roto categories (5x5 scoring), and the other half go to playoff winners of h2h which definitely makes it more fun for people fighting for a playoff spot who had no shot in roto by the end of july.

I think that the criticism of double-counting hits & hr's is concerned is not well grounded. In a traditional 5x5, a HR is already quadruple counted - it helps in BA, HR, RBI, and R automatically. It helps even more in RBI depending upon the performance of an individual player's teammates. By adding OBP and SLG as categories, all it would do is add a little value to 2B, 3B, and BB which are all categories that are currently unrewarded. Consequently, SB would be valued a less in this 7x7 than in a 5x5, but is that really a bad thing? A guy like Scott Podsednik would still have plenty of value because of his SB, but he wouldn't be a "stud" anymore.

If a league did not want to deal with HLD as a categorie for pitchers (something I was reluctant to do before I tried it this season), then a 6x6 adding OPS and OPS-against would be a nice compromise.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:55 pm

i don't know about your exact cat's, but i agree that the traditional 5x5 is very flawed. so much of "your" production depends on your teammates... they don't get on base, you don't get on rbi's. they don't get hits, you don't get runs. for pitchers, you get no support, you get no wins.

think about how roto baseball started... guys getting together in a restaurant once a week to calculate standings based off of newspaper reports. what they came up with was great for the tools that they had, but better can certainly be done. and with that fundamental point of yours i agree with.
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Postby evil_beaver_dp » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:36 am

matthias, you understand my rationale exactly. i think it would be interesting to try a league based entirely on "sabermetric" stats with stuff like DIPS for pitchers and pitches seen/PA for hitters, but there's still a great deal of fun and nastalgia in seeing a guy's stat line of 0.325, 38 HR, 124 RBI, 115 R, 12 SB. That's what everyone is familiar with and it's still important. I think the additional categories of OBP & SLG add a lot of value for hitters. I'm not completely sold on HLD & OPS-against for pitchers, but I can't really think of any better categories to add for them without getting into DIPS.
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Postby Matthias » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:21 am

yah, in my league this year we tried a couple of different things, some of which i would call successes, some of which not so much. one of the things which didn't work, but i think could, is measuring Put Outs + Assists. rationale being that someone like mike cameron or torii hunter add value to their franchises by their defensive prowess and the real defensive ability is getting to balls, not just not screwing up on routine ones. we didn't control the positions enough so people loaded up on 1B's to dominate the cat but... with tweaks i think it can work. and another one which is working is Innings Pitched + 9 * Complete Games. rationale being starting pitchers who go deep into games help your team/bullpen. and there is something cool about a CG that should be rewarded without equally weighting a random stat. so... you get double points for a complete game. has been a fair, fun, and interesting compromise.

which is a long way of saying not do it my way, but that there's a variety of ways to do things given the wide variety of stat's which get tracked and automatically computed and i'm hoping this offseason to come up with something even better. but it won't be a 5x5.
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Postby evil_beaver_dp » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:44 am

I was a little worried about HLD being included as a category in a league I'm in right now, but it's really added a lot fun to the league by opening up the rosters to a whole new set of players who are very important to their ML teams and previously had very little value to fantasy teams.

I've never seen this as an option anywhere, but it might work out to have something like "Putouts plus 3*IP minus Errors" as a category for which both hitters and pitchers contribute. That could be a 7'th category for pitchers and an 8'th category for hitters in what would essentially be a 7.5x6.5 type of scoring. Basically, outs made are underaccounted for in fantasy baseball and traditional player evaluation in general. That's why OBP is such a nice stat - it's simply the percentage of time that a hitter doesn't make an out. I'm not incredibly familiar with defensive stats just yet, but there must be something easily understood and meaningful to use for actual as well as fantasy purposes.
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