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Postby Pogotheostrich » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:36 pm

Once again not to discredit your Dad but Ozzie played for SD over 20 years ago, that would be an incredible memory. Plus he played his best years at SS once he came to St. Louis.
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Postby HOOTIE » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:07 pm

The comment K Greene has more range then Ozzie, was one of the funniest things i have read in the Cafe. That's just plain crazy. Ozzies defense wasn't overrated. No player has saved the amount of runs he did. I saw Bench, Brooks, Mays, Clemente, Nettles, Belanger, Mantle, and other glove greats, and Ozzie was the best my eyes have seen, imo. His stats are also the best i have seen.

Now i know range factor has flaws, but over 19 seasons, it has some value. Ozzie had a 5.03 range factor to a league average of 4.10. That's sick. I haven't found anyone else who was .93 better. And he did it with 2 teams. In 81 in SD he had a 5.84 RF. In 82 in St.Louis he had a 5.86 RF.

Ozzie had a 87 career ops+ (100 average). Belanger was at 68. Ozzie had a .666 ops to league average of .718. Belanger was at .580. Plus Belangers 4.53 RF to league 4.27, falls short. Mark compares to Ozzie in nothing.

Total win shares, Ozzie has 326, 9th highest by a ss. By comparision, Belanger had 162.

Total BB calculates range , which is adjusted for context. 100 is average. Ozzie was 10% better then league average.

Ozzie 110
Belanger 105
Ripken 102

FR (fielding runs), calculates how many runs a player saves or loses for his team, compared to a average fielder.

Career FR

Ozzie 279 runs saved
Belanger 114
Ripken 54

Ozzie buried other ss with defense. Add in nearly 600 sb, and just a bit under league average in hitting. SS have hit little in history. There wasn't Arod/Jeter/Tejada 15-20 years ago. Ozzie was the dominent ss in the NL for 19 years.
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Postby great gretzky » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:23 pm

i'm going to comment now -- I haven't read the entire thread.

As far as closers go -- I waffle on the idea of specialist players making it in. The Hall of Fame in any sport should be the best of the best of the best. A lot of closers are failed starters, so on that count, They weren't "good enough" to some extent. I am a BIg football fan. So this is hard.

Do you honor every position? just because it is a position, therefore do we honor the best to have played it? or do we honor the best to have played the game. If we were picking schoolyard style, of all the HOF's, where would closers go? towards the end of the line for the most part probably. The truly exceptional should go, none else for the specialty positions. I think rivera, hoffman and edgar make it. on those grounds.

I view closers like kickers in many respects. there is a big reason that everyone questioned oakland for drafting janikowski. kicking is important, but teams almost never pick one ahead of a skill position (laughing).

closign is the same way, and I think smoltz demonstrates my point. Clsoing for soem players (rivera, hoffman) is a mindset and a skill. For the majority, it is an assigment.

Rivera gets in, because those games were LOCKED DOWN when he entered them, and people feared him. the guy won the WS MVP. And was the pinnacle of a closer during his tenure. I hate hoffman, but after an extended cafe argument, he shouldn't be faulted for his team any more than ted williams should be. It's a subtle contrast, but rivera should be rewarded for shutting down the best teams every year, but hoffman shouldn't be penalized for not having the chance either.

HOF is funny business. I think baseball has the best system, but I still hate that a "plateau" gets you in. Supernova production for 5 years should count jsut the same as very good production over 10 IMO.
If you were uttleryl dominant for some years, or pretty dominant fora lot, either way, you left your mark, and you should be in.

BTW. maddux makes it obviosuly.
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Postby great gretzky » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:28 pm

one other point --

is it the mlb hall of fame or the pro baseball hall of fame?

if the latter, ichiro should get in easily.

second point, opponents are out of the control of the players, so unless it is playoffs, it shouldn't count. and if playoffs, it should count FOR a plyer in them, but if a player didn't make them, the concept shoudl be neutral.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:06 am

HOOTIE wrote:The comment K Greene has more range then Ozzie, was one of the funniest things i have read in the Cafe. That's just plain crazy. Ozzies defense wasn't overrated. No player has saved the amount of runs he did. I saw Bench, Brooks, Mays, Clemente, Nettles, Belanger, Mantle, and other glove greats, and Ozzie was the best my eyes have seen, imo. His stats are also the best i have seen.

Now i know range factor has flaws, but over 19 seasons, it has some value. Ozzie had a 5.03 range factor to a league average of 4.10. That's sick. I haven't found anyone else who was .93 better. And he did it with 2 teams. In 81 in SD he had a 5.84 RF. In 82 in St.Louis he had a 5.86 RF.

Ozzie had a 87 career ops+ (100 average). Belanger was at 68. Ozzie had a .666 ops to league average of .718. Belanger was at .580. Plus Belangers 4.53 RF to league 4.27, falls short. Mark compares to Ozzie in nothing.

Total win shares, Ozzie has 326, 9th highest by a ss. By comparision, Belanger had 162.

Total BB calculates range , which is adjusted for context. 100 is average. Ozzie was 10% better then league average.

Ozzie 110
Belanger 105
Ripken 102

FR (fielding runs), calculates how many runs a player saves or loses for his team, compared to a average fielder.

Career FR

Ozzie 279 runs saved
Belanger 114
Ripken 54

Ozzie buried other ss with defense. Add in nearly 600 sb, and just a bit under league average in hitting. SS have hit little in history. There wasn't Arod/Jeter/Tejada 15-20 years ago. Ozzie was the dominent ss in the NL for 19 years.



A 650 OPS in the 1980's is a bit under avg?...very interesting indeed. Under avg for what, a group of lame SSs? Just because the position did not have Jeter/Arod/Tejada at it in the period does not mean we put in totally anemic bats. You could make strong cases for keeping out Rizzuto and Reese. Reese had an OPS of 743...Rizzuto 706 and both had to be put in well past their playing days by the Veteran's Committee. And both were better hitters than Smith could ever dream of being.

Smith is one of the absolute lamest hitters in the HOF if not THE lamest. And he played most of his career on artifical turf, which has to have added hits to his totals. I shudder to think how bad his hitting would have been if he played on grass his entire career. There have been plenty of "Good Glove, No Hit" players in history. Ouside of a handful being discussed here, the majority of them spend their entire career as utility and reserve fielders and can not land starting jobs.

So just how hideously AWFUL does one have to be at the plate to disqualify him from HOF consideration? Is a 550 OPS too horrible? 525? 500? Does the Mendoza Line for avg disqualify someone? Or should we start awarding bonus points to players if they can do back flips and host TV shows?
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Postby Lofunzo » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:43 am

TheYanks04 wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:The comment K Greene has more range then Ozzie, was one of the funniest things i have read in the Cafe. That's just plain crazy. Ozzies defense wasn't overrated. No player has saved the amount of runs he did. I saw Bench, Brooks, Mays, Clemente, Nettles, Belanger, Mantle, and other glove greats, and Ozzie was the best my eyes have seen, imo. His stats are also the best i have seen.

Now i know range factor has flaws, but over 19 seasons, it has some value. Ozzie had a 5.03 range factor to a league average of 4.10. That's sick. I haven't found anyone else who was .93 better. And he did it with 2 teams. In 81 in SD he had a 5.84 RF. In 82 in St.Louis he had a 5.86 RF.

Ozzie had a 87 career ops+ (100 average). Belanger was at 68. Ozzie had a .666 ops to league average of .718. Belanger was at .580. Plus Belangers 4.53 RF to league 4.27, falls short. Mark compares to Ozzie in nothing.

Total win shares, Ozzie has 326, 9th highest by a ss. By comparision, Belanger had 162.

Total BB calculates range , which is adjusted for context. 100 is average. Ozzie was 10% better then league average.

Ozzie 110
Belanger 105
Ripken 102

FR (fielding runs), calculates how many runs a player saves or loses for his team, compared to a average fielder.

Career FR

Ozzie 279 runs saved
Belanger 114
Ripken 54

Ozzie buried other ss with defense. Add in nearly 600 sb, and just a bit under league average in hitting. SS have hit little in history. There wasn't Arod/Jeter/Tejada 15-20 years ago. Ozzie was the dominent ss in the NL for 19 years.



A 650 OPS in the 1980's is a bit under avg?...very interesting indeed. Under avg for what, a group of lame SSs? Just because the position did not have Jeter/Arod/Tejada at it in the period does not mean we put in totally anemic bats. You could make strong cases for keeping out Rizzuto and Reese. Reese had an OPS of 743...Rizzuto 706 and both had to be put in well past their playing days by the Veteran's Committee. And both were better hitters than Smith could ever dream of being.

Smith is one of the absolute lamest hitters in the HOF if not THE lamest. And he played most of his career on artifical turf, which has to have added hits to his totals. I shudder to think how bad his hitting would have been if he played on grass his entire career. There have been plenty of "Good Glove, No Hit" players in history. Ouside of a handful being discussed here, the majority of them spend their entire career as utility and reserve fielders and can not land starting jobs.

So just how hideously AWFUL does one have to be at the plate to disqualify him from HOF consideration? Is a 550 OPS too horrible? 525? 500? Does the Mendoza Line for avg disqualify someone? Or should we start awarding bonus points to players if they can do back flips and host TV shows?


That's the thing, though. I don't see him as a good glove, no hit player. He's at least a great glove, decent hit player. I am also impressed by the way that he improved his hitting over his career. Vizquel did the same thing. Both sucked at the plate when they came up but improved a lot there.
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Postby DannyMyron89 » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:03 pm

listen marver i hahve read alot of your posts on hoffman and great he is (you have made alot of them) and now i read about your green being having mroe range then OZZIE SMITH.....i mean some of your arguements make sense but enough already, all i ever see is you arguing about your precious hoffman and now green, and how horrman is better then rivera, and you throw all your stats out at us...

just get over it, you lost in 98 and rivera is better then hoffman, especially this year, face it...
how did colon win the cy young??

the world is comming to an end...woody paige has a Hall of Fame vote
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Postby wrveres » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:41 pm

DannyMyron89 wrote:listen marver i hahve read alot of your posts on hoffman and great he is (you have made alot of them) and now i read about your green being having mroe range then OZZIE SMITH.....i mean some of your arguements make sense but enough already, all i ever see is you arguing about your precious hoffman and now green, and how horrman is better then rivera, and you throw all your stats out at us...

just get over it, you lost in 98 and rivera is better then hoffman, especially this year, face it...


what are you 12 ? :-t

BTW, we encourage the use of stats to back up a discussion around here. sorry if numbers make your head hurt
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Postby AT » Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:08 pm

Hoffman is a HOF. There's no question. Closers are starting to get a better look at the Hall and it's only going to increase. He's one of the best ever and he belongs in the Hall.

Other random thoughts in no particular order.

Chipper Jones has a lot to prove.

Vlad has a lot to prove.

Biggio is in.

I think Jeter needs a few more years.

ARod is a lock.

Smoltz is in.

Glavine is on the bubble.

Raffy goes in on 1st ballot.

Sheff needs a couple more years.

Roy Halladay and Billy Wagner's names being mentioned is ridiculous.

Curt Schilling is not a hall of famer.

Mike Piazza goes on 1st ballot.

Jeff Kent is definitely in.

Helton is a ways away.

Larry Walker is on the bubble.

Pujols has a long way to go.

Byung Hyung Kim is on the bubble.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Fri Jul 15, 2005 2:23 pm

Atrophying Testicles wrote:Hoffman is a HOF. There's no question. Closers are starting to get a better look at the Hall and it's only going to increase. He's one of the best ever and he belongs in the Hall.
I could say the same about Gossage but he still isn't getting enough support. Sutter too. I think that while most baseball fans think RP deserve a better look at the HOF most writers are still against it. I think Hoffman is a HOF but I don't think he will get in. Rivera is the only modern day closer that will make it IMO because of his post-season success.
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