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Postby davidmarver » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:07 am

There are some pretty terrible flaws going on around here about Hoffman and Rivera. First off, as far as game logs go back, Hoffman's saves are a higher 1-run% than Rivera and a lower 3-run % than Rivera so the saves/blown saves statistic should work against Hoffman, but it doesn't, meaning its use (saves and blown saves) is perfectly relevent.

Second, the NL West % vs. the AL East %'s don't take into account the fact that the Yankees pad the AL East %s while the Padres hinder the NL West %s.
<pre>
2004 AL East without Yankees: 313-333 (.484)
2004 NL West without Padres : 303-345 (.468)
2003 AL East without Yankees: 315-333 (.486)
2003 NL West without Padres : 343-304 (.530)
2002 AL East without Yankees: 293-354 (.452)
2002 NL West without Padres : 358-289 (.553)
2001 AL East without Yankees: 287-359 (.444)
2001 NL West without Padres : 341-307 (.526)
Total AL East without Yanks : 1208-1379 (.466)
Total NL West without Padres: 1345-1245 (.519)
</pre>
Granted Hoffman was injured for one of those seasons, but that wasn't really the argument wrveras was making; he said that Mariano's numbers have been padded by the advent of the weighted divisional schedule. Judging by the schedule differential, I'd have to agree although I don't think it affects their numbers to that great of an extent.

I'd like to point out that, by no means, am I trying to discredit what Mariano has accomplished, I am just trying to convey how much more difficult it has been for Hoffman due to more 1-run game % and less 3-run game %, a more-difficult schedule, etc. Posters will attempt to lessen the difficulty of Hoffman's saves with the belief that the DH makes up the difference, but when was the last time a closer, in a save situation, faced the opposing pitcher? More than often a player on the opposing team sits out and pinch hits if the pitcher spot comes up later in the game; Hoffman faces just as tough competition from a positional standpoint due to these facts.

I still don't see how Mariano supporters can use postseason numbers in his favor or at least to have it overcome the blatant advantage Hoffman has save/blown save-wise. Sure, the ERA and WHIP are great, but he blew one World Series and arguably another last season; Hoffman blew two postseason saves, but his didn't have the magnitude of Rivera's blown saves. Hoffman's first was meaningless; Padres won the series anyway. Hoffman's second came in game three of a series the Padres never would have won because they were facing one of the best teams ever.

A closer that is lights-out 8 of 9 times but on the ninth blows the save by allowing a run is less effective than a closer who closes all 9 games giving up three total runs. Saves and blown saves should be renamed ensured wins and possible blown wins.

I don't want to get too deep in this subject because we really are arguing a very trivial matter. These two are the best two closers of this generation (I would argue Eric Gagne in there, but his success is short-lived) and whichever one you would choose doesn't really matter because the two are so similar that the difference would be miniscule.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:32 am

HOOTIE wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:As to HOF...the standard is a running joke with Jime Rice not in, Rich Gossage not in, Don Mattingly not in, but guys like Bill Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith and Kirby Puckett (almost identical number to Mattingly) in. When guys like Mazeroski and Smith get in, you may as well just let everyone in as it bacomes a total farce. Smith is in but Jim Rice isn't...it is really laughable when you think about it.


Ozzie deserves it. Was a top 10 ss easy. The fact Mattingly's numbers are close to Puckett is moot. You compare players to their peers at their position. Puckett played a defensive position (cf).

Glavine, Smoltz are borderline imo.

Biggio is a top 10 2b, he should get in.

Hoffman/Rivera was debated before. It was shown Hoffman wins peak, Rivera career.

As far as Ichiro/Pujols. If they didn't play again, they have no shot. You have to have 10 years in to be eligible as a player.


Smith? Because he could field and do a backflip? Please. Let's put Belanger and Paul Blair in the HOF too. Look at these lifetime offensive numbers:


over 19 Seasons 9396 ABs:

.262 avg
28 Hrs (less than 2 a year)
793 Rbis (about 40 a year)
1257 Runs (about 65 a year)
580 SBs (about 30 a year and the only thing this guy could do)
.337 OBP
.328 slugging (that is no typo, a .328 slugging percentage)
.665 OPS (you talk about awful, what do you call someone who can't even post a .700 OPS).

Heck Dave Roberts has a som espeed and a lifetime OPS of .679, he HOF material?

Mazerowski's numbers are not much better if they are even better. More power and no speed with the same awful percentages....oh but he hit that 1 Hr and could field.
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Postby davidmarver » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:39 am

TheYanks04 wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:As to HOF...the standard is a running joke with Jime Rice not in, Rich Gossage not in, Don Mattingly not in, but guys like Bill Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith and Kirby Puckett (almost identical number to Mattingly) in. When guys like Mazeroski and Smith get in, you may as well just let everyone in as it bacomes a total farce. Smith is in but Jim Rice isn't...it is really laughable when you think about it.


Ozzie deserves it. Was a top 10 ss easy. The fact Mattingly's numbers are close to Puckett is moot. You compare players to their peers at their position. Puckett played a defensive position (cf).

Glavine, Smoltz are borderline imo.

Biggio is a top 10 2b, he should get in.

Hoffman/Rivera was debated before. It was shown Hoffman wins peak, Rivera career.

As far as Ichiro/Pujols. If they didn't play again, they have no shot. You have to have 10 years in to be eligible as a player.


Smith? Because he could field and do a backflip? Please. Let's put Belanger and Paul Blair in the HOF too. Look at these lifetime offensive numbers

I know anecdotal evidence is frowned upon, but my dad, a long-time Padres fan will tell you how much more range Khalil Greene has in comparison to Ozzie Smith (meaning Ozzie's defense wasn't that HOF spectacular). Ozzie was flashier but Khalil gets to more balls without having to leave his feet. Shows you how much effect highlight reels have...just what he thinks (he may set up an account) ;-D
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:52 am

TheYanks04 wrote:Smith? Because he could field and do a backflip? Please. Let's put Belanger and Paul Blair in the HOF too. Look at these lifetime offensive numbers:


over 19 Seasons 9396 ABs:

.262 avg
28 Hrs (less than 2 a year)
793 Rbis (about 40 a year)
1257 Runs (about 65 a year)
580 SBs (about 30 a year and the only thing this guy could do)
.337 OBP
.328 slugging (that is no typo, a .328 slugging percentage)
.665 OPS (you talk about awful, what do you call someone who can't even post a .700 OPS).

Heck Dave Roberts has a som espeed and a lifetime OPS of .679, he HOF material?

Mazerowski's numbers are not much better if they are even better. More power and no speed with the same awful percentages....oh but he hit that 1 Hr and could field.
Ozzie isn't in the HOF for his offense. The reason he is in is because he was the greatest defensive SS.
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Postby Tavish » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:14 am

WharfRat wrote:
Tavish wrote: Very likely non-1st ballot guys:
Piazza, Raffy, Biggio, Bagwell, Manny, Kent
Glavine, Hoffman, Rivera


Tavish - how are you putting Bagwell on there but no mention of Big Hurt? Very similar players.


Very similar, but Thomas is going to end up playing more games at DH than any other position which will likely hurt his chances. A better offensive player than Bagwell and Raffy but will be a bubble guy to get in.
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Postby Lofunzo » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:49 am

davidmarver wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:As to HOF...the standard is a running joke with Jime Rice not in, Rich Gossage not in, Don Mattingly not in, but guys like Bill Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith and Kirby Puckett (almost identical number to Mattingly) in. When guys like Mazeroski and Smith get in, you may as well just let everyone in as it bacomes a total farce. Smith is in but Jim Rice isn't...it is really laughable when you think about it.


Ozzie deserves it. Was a top 10 ss easy. The fact Mattingly's numbers are close to Puckett is moot. You compare players to their peers at their position. Puckett played a defensive position (cf).

Glavine, Smoltz are borderline imo.

Biggio is a top 10 2b, he should get in.

Hoffman/Rivera was debated before. It was shown Hoffman wins peak, Rivera career.

As far as Ichiro/Pujols. If they didn't play again, they have no shot. You have to have 10 years in to be eligible as a player.


Smith? Because he could field and do a backflip? Please. Let's put Belanger and Paul Blair in the HOF too. Look at these lifetime offensive numbers

I know anecdotal evidence is frowned upon, but my dad, a long-time Padres fan will tell you how much more range Khalil Greene has in comparison to Ozzie Smith (meaning Ozzie's defense wasn't that HOF spectacular). Ozzie was flashier but Khalil gets to more balls without having to leave his feet. Shows you how much effect highlight reels have...just what he thinks (he may set up an account) ;-D


I don't want to discredit your dad but I would like to see Khalil continue it for another 17 seasons before they are in the same sentence other than to say that they are former and current SS for the Padres.
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Postby TheYanks04 » Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:41 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:Smith? Because he could field and do a backflip? Please. Let's put Belanger and Paul Blair in the HOF too. Look at these lifetime offensive numbers:


over 19 Seasons 9396 ABs:

.262 avg
28 Hrs (less than 2 a year)
793 Rbis (about 40 a year)
1257 Runs (about 65 a year)
580 SBs (about 30 a year and the only thing this guy could do)
.337 OBP
.328 slugging (that is no typo, a .328 slugging percentage)
.665 OPS (you talk about awful, what do you call someone who can't even post a .700 OPS).

Heck Dave Roberts has a som espeed and a lifetime OPS of .679, he HOF material?

Mazerowski's numbers are not much better if they are even better. More power and no speed with the same awful percentages....oh but he hit that 1 Hr and could field.
Ozzie isn't in the HOF for his offense. The reason he is in is because he was the greatest defensive SS.



Name the members of the HOF in strictly for their defense:

1. Smith
2. Mazeroski

By that argument, then Mark Bellanger, Paul Blair and Bert Campaneris should be put into the HOF becuase of their glove work. It is a perposterous argument to claim that defense alone gets you into the HOF. It has never been the case before those 2 and to start making exceptions because one guy hit an important HR and the other was a show man who did back flips is plain silly. A 665 OPS...you really have got to be kidding.
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Postby Pogotheostrich » Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:49 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:Name the members of the HOF in strictly for their defense:


Along with the 2 you mentioned here is what I came up with off the top of my head:

Ray Schalk - C - Career OPS - .656
Brooks Robinson - 3B - Career OPS - .723
Luis Aparicio - SS - Career OPS - .653
Nellie Fox - 2B - Career OPS - .710
Rabbit Maranville - SS - Career OPS - .658
Joe Tinker - SS - Career OPS - .661
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Postby TheYanks04 » Thu Jul 14, 2005 2:07 pm

Pogotheostrich wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:Name the members of the HOF in strictly for their defense:


Along with the 2 you mentioned here is what I came up with off the top of my head:

Ray Schalk - C - Career OPS - .656
Brooks Robinson - 3B - Career OPS - .723
Luis Aparicio - SS - Career OPS - .653
Nellie Fox - 2B - Career OPS - .710
Rabbit Maranville - SS - Career OPS - .658
Joe Tinker - SS - Career OPS - .661



While some of those guys are dubious choices also...I would note that:
Robinson and Fox have OPSs 60+ points higher than Smith's and in the 700s.

Tinker played in the early 1900s in an era where entire teams did not hit 60 Hrs.

Schalk palyed in the 19 teens and 20's sort of partially also in same era as Tinker.

Maranville ... played 23 years spanning the same early 1900 period through 1935...not much good to say there with why he got in I will admit.

Aparicio...not much good to say there either.


Either way, that maybe makes 5 or 6 guys in for defense in over 100 years and does not make it right.


Defense is a factor to be considered. Just like no pitcher gets voted into the HOF for his hitting prowess, no position player should get in solely based on his glove if he is anemic at the plate. At least that is my 2 cents worth.
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Postby davidmarver » Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:19 pm

Lofunzo wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:
HOOTIE wrote:
TheYanks04 wrote:As to HOF...the standard is a running joke with Jime Rice not in, Rich Gossage not in, Don Mattingly not in, but guys like Bill Mazeroski, Ozzie Smith and Kirby Puckett (almost identical number to Mattingly) in. When guys like Mazeroski and Smith get in, you may as well just let everyone in as it bacomes a total farce. Smith is in but Jim Rice isn't...it is really laughable when you think about it.


Ozzie deserves it. Was a top 10 ss easy. The fact Mattingly's numbers are close to Puckett is moot. You compare players to their peers at their position. Puckett played a defensive position (cf).

Glavine, Smoltz are borderline imo.

Biggio is a top 10 2b, he should get in.

Hoffman/Rivera was debated before. It was shown Hoffman wins peak, Rivera career.

As far as Ichiro/Pujols. If they didn't play again, they have no shot. You have to have 10 years in to be eligible as a player.


Smith? Because he could field and do a backflip? Please. Let's put Belanger and Paul Blair in the HOF too. Look at these lifetime offensive numbers

I know anecdotal evidence is frowned upon, but my dad, a long-time Padres fan will tell you how much more range Khalil Greene has in comparison to Ozzie Smith (meaning Ozzie's defense wasn't that HOF spectacular). Ozzie was flashier but Khalil gets to more balls without having to leave his feet. Shows you how much effect highlight reels have...just what he thinks (he may set up an account) ;-D


I don't want to discredit your dad but I would like to see Khalil continue it for another 17 seasons before they are in the same sentence other than to say that they are former and current SS for the Padres.

I'm not saying this to tell you how good Khalil is, but how overrated Smith's defense was and is.
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