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Postby Madison » Sat Jul 09, 2005 4:31 am

Good Lord..... :-/

Not even sure where to start with this one, so I'll just start at post #1 in the thread and work my way forward. :-/

Matthias is right. It would be great to see everyone stop being overly sensitive, and stop searching out comments that could be considered "bashing" just to stir up trouble :-/ . Way too many simple comments or observations are turned into big old messes simply because someone overreacts or is overly sensitive about the team it's said about. :-/

Eftda's right, Bud Selig is to blame for all of baseball's problems. ;-D

I'm with Trans, all this stupid bickering is tiresome and ridiculous. :-/

This is not an Anti-Yankee board. Like I said, way too many things are blown way, way out of proportion. :-/

Jeter has been better than Pods this year and deserves the nod over him for the All-Star game, in my opinion of course. ;-D Oh, and note that I have NOT read the 9 page thread about it......yet.

ALL teams take abuse here. It's just a difference in the way the team's fans handle the comments or abuse. Take my Rangers terrible pitching staff for example. It's mentioned all the time that we cannot pitch for beans. Guess what? It's true and there's no arguments over it because Ranger fans are aware that our pitching stinks. We (Ranger fans) don't start arguments, bicker, or fight about it, we just acknowledge it to be the simple truth. Not all team's fans are able to look at their own team's weaknesses and act accordingly, and here's a news flash.......There's not one perfect team out there! Every team in the major leagues has flaws or places that could be improved, and people are going to point it out, so accept that simple fact instead of whining about your team being bashed and life will be much easier.

Been kinda nice not to have the constant Bonds threads running around. B-)

Agreed that Yankee fans do not have control over the amount of the Yankee's payroll ;-D . I've even defended George's BUSINESS decisions several times on these boards. Baseball is a business first and formost for the person who owns the team (George). The fans are not responsible for what he spends on his business. I wish Hicks would invest like that in his business here with the Rangers. Maybe we'd finally get some starting pitching. :-/

Peralta over Jeter? :-? I'd like to hear the reasoning behind that one and I'm not even a Yankee fan. :-?

Yes the Yankees have a lot of All-Stars, but look at the team 8-o . Pretty hard not to have a bunch of All-Stars with their lineup every year. :-D

Since Registerd_Guest's sig got so much attention......which really shouldn't have been a big deal, like many other things around here, let's take a look at it:

1. Roger>Randy.

I drafted Randy over Roger and admit I'd rather have Roger's numbers so far this year. !+) I'll still take Randy over Roger for the second half though (barring a trade of course). ;-)

2. New Yankee SP's = BUST! (again);

Other than Wang, he's got a point so far. RJ, Mussina, Pavano have all struggled so far.

3. Bernie will cover the least amount of ground of any CF in baseball for 4th straight yr.;

I've been wondering for quite some time why he's still on the team. I know he's a hometown favorite, but it really is time for him to hang them up and retire.

4. Yanks = stuck with Giambi's contract;

This is true, but Giambi has had a nice recent surge, so it may not turn out to be all that bad. ;-)

5. Loaiza > any SP signed in offseason by Yankees.

This one I disagree with even now. :-D

So anyway, what's the problem? He made a few predictions/observations and put them in his sig. There are all kinds of watches/busts/breakouts in people's sigs. None have been made a big deal about until now. Goes back to the overly sensitive part that I mentioned earlier. ;-)

BronX, I'm sure you could do the same thing with the Royals in your sig and most Royals fans would probably agree that they stink this year. That team needs some serious help. You also wouldn't be the first to say that the Russ Ortiz signing was dumb, or that it's pretty sad the Devil Rays only spend $30 million on their team. None of that is news to anyone and has been said before.

BronX, you also asked if you were the problem. I'm going to say you're not the problem, but part of the reactions you get are in response to some of your overreactions to some things that are said. If you tone down in situations that just might not be "Yankee hating", I'd say that your conversations would probably be a whole lot more civil and interesting, but that's just the way I see some of those conversations. Granted, there is quite a bit of dumb stuff said about the Yankees, and in those times, you're harsh responses are necessary. Just pointing out that everything bad that's said about the Yankees isn't necessarily "Yankee hating" or trying to stir up problems. Being able to deciper which is which is an invaluable tool. ;-) For the most part in this thread, I think you've done a good job ;-D . I do believe you overreacted to Registered_Guest's sig and have yet to acknowledge that he did in fact take it down due to the overreaction, but other than that, not a bad job at all in this thread. ;-D

Venting forum? Nah, this is something that's been building up for a long time and it's about time it gets discussed. ;-D


I see Registered_Guest removed his sig and didn't even get so much as a "Thank You" for removing something that isn't any different than anything else around here. ;-7 Blank mentioned he took it down, but that's all that was said. Why am I not surprised? :-?

Yes, if the White Sox spent $200 million in payroll and started the season terribly, the White Sox fans would have to endure a ton of bashing and joke making at their expense. Even though the fans are not responsible for what management spends or who they sign. Not saying any of it's right or ok, but it is the way it is. Any team that spends a crazy amount of money and fails, will be laughed at, and it's that way in any sport or business. Just a fact of life and comes with being a fan of the team or an employee of the business.

I don't think this thread is worthless. If everyone would just take a step back and see things the way they are, take off the blinders, and accept the world as is, this thread could actually be beneficial. ;-D

Blankman wrote:I think it really all starts with the Mods.


I've been in a real good mood until I read that seeing as how this is the third time in this thread you've attempted to call out the mods. :-t

How many times do you want to lay the overreactions at the moderator's feet? This is the 3rd time in this thread! Quite frankly, we remove what we remove and I'm tired of hearing your whining and crying that we don't remove everything that's said that's remotely bad about the Yankees. Fact of the matter is that some people overreact to every little thing that isn't said nicely about the Yankees. I've removed more negative stuff about the Yankees than I have all other teams combined. I've even defending George's spending on several occasions. This is flat out ridiculous. :-t

All this talk of hate in sigs, screen names, or opinions. Guess we should just ban anyone who mentions a player stinks this year, or a team that's not living up to expectations, right? ;-7 Well, Chan Ho Park stinks!!! Guess I have to ban myself now right? ;-7 After all, according to what everyone is saying, that's a hateful comment. ;-7 Pretty soon it will be team A in Blue vs. team B in Green (is either blue or green a hateful color :-o ? I get lost in all of this crap :-o .) and there will be no winner, since one team would have to lose and thus, the world would be "hating on them". ;-7

Now that I've been through all 7 pages, none of anything I've written is directed at any specific team or person unless I stated so in the response. Pretty sad that the world has come to the point of having to put a disclaimer at the end of a post, but that's the world we live in :-/ , and that's another discussion completely. Anyway, all teams take abuse in the forums. Some more than others, but what people have to realize is that some teams have more fans than others and some teams are in the spotlight more than others. Look at how much abuse Cubs fans take. Has a single Cub fan (and there are a lot of Cub fans) come into this thread and complained about the amount of abuse they take? No. They understand that their team has issues and hearing it from other team's fans is all a part of being a Cubs fan.

Ahhh, but there's always a flipside to everything. Just look at how many people were cheering for the Red Sox to break the curse in the playoffs last year. Look at how many people cheered the Marlins when they were running hot. I personally cheered both those teams during thier runs even as a Ranger fan. I wanted to see Red Sox fans finally break their curse and win a World Championship. I also cheered the Marlins since I wanted to see Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez get a World Championship Ring. Does that make me a fan of either team beyond that? Absolutely not, but according to the way you guys throw the "hate" definition around, I really must be a Red Sox and Marlins "Lover". Then again, I've rooted for quite a few teams other than those, so I guess I just "Love" all teams, right? Of course not, but if you guys threw the "Lover" tag around like you do the "Hate" tag, you would all see just how plain silly all of this fighting and bickering really is.
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Postby Matthias » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:07 am

Madison wrote:Just pointing out that everything bad that's said about the Yankees isn't necessarily "Yankee hating" or trying to stir up problems.


this is exactly what i'm trying to say.

i guess, how i think of it as, is the cafe can be like the United Nations, either its employees or delegates. its employees work for the UN and, while there, foreswear allegiance to whatever home nation from which they come. the delegates are there as representatives of their nations to work towards a common good, but everyone knows that they are doing this as representatives of their home countries.

given that everyone at the cafe isn't going to give up their baseball alleigiances like the u.n. employees, things would seem to work smoother if everyone just recognized that people had their own, personal allegiances and then moved on with things.

in the corporate world, i've noticed that as the level of abstraction grows, it becomes very easy for the original issue to become lost. say, someone has a copy of SI's swimsuit edition on their desk (may even be the case that they're a subscriber and just picked up the mail at lunch). but someone sees it, and raises it with hr, and all of a sudden there's half a dozen conversations on gender sensitivity, when the original issue was this guy had a subscription to sports illustrated (and yes, this is an example, not a personal story). what my point is is that removing a conversation from the specific and immediately raising it to the general, one loses the entire context of the discussion and it becomes easier to find fault. so immediately having a knee-jerk reaction that something is an immediate bias hurts the discourse here.

because we have all biases (at least, in the sense that they're preferences). if we just recognized it, accepted it, and moved on, as i said originally, i think the cafe could be even better than it is.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sat Jul 09, 2005 9:28 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:
Registered_Guest wrote:This one??

Only stating the facts....

If you can dispute them, I can easily erase portions.


LOL

Dude, you ARE the reason for this thread. Anyone have any questions as to why we get pissed off? Look at this guy...

Wow, can't accept the truth? Face it, most of the pitchers are busts dude. If you can't handle that in a fantasy baseball forum, then you probably shouldn't stay here. I swear you Yankee fans have some sort of alarm whenever a bad thing about the Yankees here, because you come so fast its crazy. And its usually everyone: Blankman, Bronx, Yanks04, etc. You know, these huge bicker fights would never get big if you didn't take major offense to them. Its the freaking internet. Don't take it too seriously.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:01 am

Matthias wrote:
Madison wrote:Just pointing out that everything bad that's said about the Yankees isn't necessarily "Yankee hating" or trying to stir up problems.


this is exactly what i'm trying to say.

i guess, how i think of it as, is the cafe can be like the United Nations, either its employees or delegates. its employees work for the UN and, while there, foreswear allegiance to whatever home nation from which they come. the delegates are there as representatives of their nations to work towards a common good, but everyone knows that they are doing this as representatives of their home countries.

given that everyone at the cafe isn't going to give up their baseball alleigiances like the u.n. employees, things would seem to work smoother if everyone just recognized that people had their own, personal allegiances and then moved on with things.

in the corporate world, i've noticed that as the level of abstraction grows, it becomes very easy for the original issue to become lost. say, someone has a copy of SI's swimsuit edition on their desk (may even be the case that they're a subscriber and just picked up the mail at lunch). but someone sees it, and raises it with hr, and all of a sudden there's half a dozen conversations on gender sensitivity, when the original issue was this guy had a subscription to sports illustrated (and yes, this is an example, not a personal story). what my point is is that removing a conversation from the specific and immediately raising it to the general, one loses the entire context of the discussion and it becomes easier to find fault. so immediately having a knee-jerk reaction that something is an immediate bias hurts the discourse here.

because we have all biases (at least, in the sense that they're preferences). if we just recognized it, accepted it, and moved on, as i said originally, i think the cafe could be even better than it is.


No, you're compeltely wrong. I don't have an allegience to the Yankees beyond rooting for the team. I don't defend everything they do, and I admit there have been alot of stupid things they've done, it's easy to see that. And I have ZERO problem discussing these stupid moves, but in a civilized thread pertaining to the subject. When people go around with sigs that target one team, and rub it in the faces of those fans, it pisses us off. That's the bottom line. Maybe you guys don't understand that. Maybe that's because nobody does it to your team. I don't see any Texas Ranger or Minnesota Twin sigs bashing anything they do. If people say things about the Yankees, that's fine. I'm 100% for having a discussion, and I'll be the first to admit that the Yankees have run their team idiotically over the past few years. But you don't go around rubbing it in peoples faces. You guys don't understand where we're coming from beacuse you aren't Yankee fans, and that's the only team that takes that kind of abuse.

I've felt like people have discounted my opinions on the Yankees, because of my avatar and name. I get categorized with all other Yankee fans (and there are alot of loud, dumb, ignorant Yankee fans out there that give us a bad name). People don't take time to hear the argument, they see I'm a Yankee fan, so I'm automatically a homer and too defensive. When I defend the Yankees, it's not because I'm a Yankee fan. I argued that Jeter is better than Podsednik because I BELIEVE JETER IS BETTER THAN PODSEDNIK. I can't make it any more simple than that. Yet people throw out stupid comments like "You Yankee fans should quit your crying." With all due respect Mad, and I'm glad you showed up in here, the Rangers do not take as much heat as the Yankees do. I don't see 'alot' of people constantly bashing the Rangers. Nor any other team, with slight exception to the Red Sox. Do they get criticized? Sure. But I'm all for criticizing questionable moves, player performances, and things of that sort. But that isn't what goes on most of the time with the Yankees.

I understand it's easy to pick on the Yankees because they are the Yankees. And I have the mindset to deal with more crap than most other fans, because I expect that. But this guy started a thread asking us to explain ourselves and that's what I'm trying to do. I have no problem with people criticizing the Yankees, but it's the little wiseass comments that build up and get me annoyed.

I can't tell you how many times I get responses to my posts that go something like, "Well, I guess a .500 team will do that to you," or "You're just upset that the $200 million Yankees suck this year." I don't see why we have to deal with that. Those are stupid comments, instigating a fight. There is a difference between 'hating' and criticism. That is hating, there's no two ways about it. If I'm talking in a thread about Carl Pavano, and somebody says he sucks and is overpaid, I'd be inclined to agree. That isn't 'hating'. But things like the afforementioned comments are, and those are the things that piss me off, personally. I get my opinion belittled, and categorized by people who think I'm just a 'stuck-up Yankee fan'.
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Postby WharfRat » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:09 am

CubsFan7724 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
Registered_Guest wrote:This one??

Only stating the facts....

If you can dispute them, I can easily erase portions.


LOL

Dude, you ARE the reason for this thread. Anyone have any questions as to why we get pissed off? Look at this guy...

Wow, can't accept the truth? Face it, most of the pitchers are busts dude. If you can't handle that in a fantasy baseball forum, then you probably shouldn't stay here. I swear you Yankee fans have some sort of alarm whenever a bad thing about the Yankees here, because you come so fast its crazy. And its usually everyone: Blankman, Bronx, Yanks04, etc. You know, these huge bicker fights would never get big if you didn't take major offense to them. Its the freaking internet. Don't take it too seriously.


Again - this has been stated over and over - it's not the arguments or the criticism or whatever. It's being a wiseass about it that gets old and obnoxious. If someone wants to have a debate? Great, that's what we're here for. You want to talk a little trash? Hey, part of the fun of being a fan. But people shouldn't act like jerks, is what it boils down to, and the rest of us probably wouldn't have to feel like we need to sling it right back or something.

I also realize it's a two-way street, and some guys here shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions about bias (and I fall victim to this too). And threads also need to be moved to the Yankee forum at times, despite the fact that there are Yankee fans here in abundance. It's like the chicken and the egg, in some ways.

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Postby Mookie4ever » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:20 am

I poured my morning coffee, leafed through the paper turned on the computer, saw this thread and thought "oh no, there goes my morning". You don't know how happy I was to see Mad's post at the bottom. Now I don't need to read another 7 pages of bickering and whining. Thank God for insomnia in Texas ;-D

I'm on board with everything that Mad posted. This has been brewing for a long time and should be discussed in the open so that we can deal with it.


Madison wrote:
Blankman wrote:I think it really all starts with the Mods.


I've been in a real good mood until I read that seeing as how this is the third time in this thread you've attempted to call out the mods. :-t

How many times do you want to lay the overreactions at the moderator's feet? This is the 3rd time in this thread! Quite frankly, we remove what we remove and I'm tired of hearing your whining and crying that we don't remove everything that's said that's remotely bad about the Yankees. Fact of the matter is that some people overreact to every little thing that isn't said nicely about the Yankees. I've removed more negative stuff about the Yankees than I have all other teams combined. I've even defending George's spending on several occasions. This is flat out ridiculous. :-t


I am going to refrain from commenting on Blankman's post except to say that it's probably the dumbest post that I have ever read. Your "policing" is at the root of many of the locked and trashed threads. For you to try to call out the mods is pretty insulting....again.

Yankee fans have to shoulder some of the blame for this. If they would only post in their own forum then they could cheer, pat themselves on the back and minutely dissect every team move to their heart's content. If you post these things in the Leftovers forum you are asking for comment from non-Yankee fans. Just yesterday I had to move, merge or delete 4 threads in the Leftovers forum dealing with Melky Cabrera getting called up.

If you want to see how good a team forum can be check out the classy Cards fans in the St. Louis forum.

I don't want to come down hard on the Yankee fans but there are so many of you that you are bound to cover the entire spectrum. Some of our best posters are Yankee fans and some of our worst posters are Yankee fans, its just that there are so many of you that you can dominate the Cafe and do at times, which creates a bit of a backlash.

Rivalries are fun but when people start to resent the Yankee talk the rivalries sour and turn ugly.

I truely believe that if you posted more in the Yankee forum that it could become one of the best forums in the Cafe. That place could be a hopping cool forum. Yankee topics are interesting and if you keep it to your own forum we could have some great discussions.

I'm not saying that there should be no Yankee threads in the leftovers forum. Yankee moves have a profound affect on fantasy baseball and should be discussed with everybody - but 4 threads about Melky Cabrera getting called up?!?!? Seriously. How about discussing a topic not related to the Yankees instead?
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:27 am

Mookie4ever wrote:I poured my morning coffee, leafed through the paper turned on the computer, saw this thread and thought "oh no, there goes my morning". You don't know how happy I was to see Mad's post at the bottom. Now I don't need to read another 7 pages of bickering and whining. Thank God for insomnia in Texas ;-D

I'm on board with everything that Mad posted. This has been brewing for a long time and should be discussed in the open so that we can deal with it.


Madison wrote:
Blankman wrote:I think it really all starts with the Mods.


I've been in a real good mood until I read that seeing as how this is the third time in this thread you've attempted to call out the mods. :-t

How many times do you want to lay the overreactions at the moderator's feet? This is the 3rd time in this thread! Quite frankly, we remove what we remove and I'm tired of hearing your whining and crying that we don't remove everything that's said that's remotely bad about the Yankees. Fact of the matter is that some people overreact to every little thing that isn't said nicely about the Yankees. I've removed more negative stuff about the Yankees than I have all other teams combined. I've even defending George's spending on several occasions. This is flat out ridiculous. :-t


I am going to refrain from commenting on Blankman's post except to say that it's probably the dumbest post that I have ever read. Your "policing" is at the root of many of the locked and trashed threads. For you to try to call out the mods is pretty insulting....again.

Yankee fans have to shoulder some of the blame for this. If they would only post in their own forum then they could cheer, pat themselves on the back and minutely dissect every team move to their heart's content. If you post these things in the Leftovers forum you are asking for comment from non-Yankee fans. Just yesterday I had to move, merge or delete 4 threads in the Leftovers forum dealing with Melky Cabrera getting called up.

If you want to see how good a team forum can be check out the classy Cards fans in the St. Louis forum.

I don't want to come down hard on the Yankee fans but there are so many of you that you are bound to cover the entire spectrum. Some of our best posters are Yankee fans and some of our worst posters are Yankee fans, its just that there are so many of you that you can dominate the Cafe and do at times, which creates a bit of a backlash.

Rivalries are fun but when people start to resent the Yankee talk the rivalries sour and turn ugly.

I truely believe that if you posted more in the Yankee forum that it could become one of the best forums in the Cafe. That place could be a hopping cool forum. Yankee topics are interesting and if you keep it to your own forum we could have some great discussions.

I'm not saying that there should be no Yankee threads in the leftovers forum. Yankee moves have a profound affect on fantasy baseball and should be discussed with everybody - but 4 threads about Melky Cabrera getting called up?!?!? Seriously. How about discussing a topic not related to the Yankees instead?


Point well taken, and I do shoulder some of the blame for that. I haven't made any questionable posts (like Melky) on the board, that I can remember. The only one that I guess could be questioned was the Paul Quantrill trade, which I did post, but I figured it was news and I'd put it here and if I was completely wrong, I'd be told and it would be moved. I also make a point to start new threads if a new discussion evolves in an existing thread. I try hard not to hijack a thread, which is the other complaint made about Yankee fans. You can check out the "Yankee Hijacking" thread started by wrevers to get my opinion on that.
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Postby Mookie4ever » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:33 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:Point well taken, and I do shoulder some of the blame for that. I haven't made any questionable posts (like Melky) on the board, that I can remember. The only one that I guess could be questioned was the Paul Quantrill trade, which I did post, but I figured it was news and I'd put it here and if I was completely wrong, I'd be told and it would be moved. I also make a point to start new threads if a new discussion evolves in an existing thread. I try hard not to hijack a thread, which is the other complaint made about Yankee fans. You can check out the "Yankee Hijacking" thread started by wrevers to get my opinion on that.


I should make it clear that I don't mean to call anybody out. Yankee fans are probably the lifeblood of the Cafe and make invaluable contributions to other threads but the Quantrill trade is a perfect example. It is important to the Yankees because their bullpen can really suck at time but what significance did this move have in fantasy? Next to none in all but the deepest of AL-only leagues.

That is a topic that I would have liked to discuss in the Yankee forum - because Cashman really should be making moves to shore up the pen. But when you post it in the Leftovers forum and it gets more responses than Mike Sweeney going on the DL (just an example) then there is bound to be some backlash.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:36 am

Mookie4ever wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:Point well taken, and I do shoulder some of the blame for that. I haven't made any questionable posts (like Melky) on the board, that I can remember. The only one that I guess could be questioned was the Paul Quantrill trade, which I did post, but I figured it was news and I'd put it here and if I was completely wrong, I'd be told and it would be moved. I also make a point to start new threads if a new discussion evolves in an existing thread. I try hard not to hijack a thread, which is the other complaint made about Yankee fans. You can check out the "Yankee Hijacking" thread started by wrevers to get my opinion on that.


I should make it clear that I don't mean to call anybody out. Yankee fans are probably the lifeblood of the Cafe and make invaluable contributions to other threads but the Quantrill trade is a perfect example. It is important to the Yankees because their bullpen can really suck at time but what significance did this move have in fantasy? Next to none in all but the deepest of AL-only leagues.

That is a topic that I would have liked to discuss in the Yankee forum - because Cashman really should be making moves to shore up the pen. But when you post it in the Leftovers forum and it gets more responses than Mike Sweeney going on the DL (just an example) then there is bound to be some backlash.


Alright then, I'll try to be more conscience of taking those things to the Yankee forum. I haven't been around here long and I assumed baseball news (trades, FA signings, etc.) but I'll take those things to the proper forums if they aren't fantasy-related.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:37 am

What do you know...there's a segment on 'hated teams' on Sportscenter right now... ;-) Guess who's number 1?
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