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Bernie - retire his number?

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Bernie: Retire his number?

Yes
9
64%
No
5
36%
 
Total votes : 14

Postby blankman » Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:10 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:I also was pretty certain thay were going to retire 22 for Clemens before he decided to come back for Houston, and I guess it's still possible. Someone's going to retire his number, anyway. I also thought O'Neill had an outside shot, not based on the numbers, just the great Yankee that he was.


Cano's got it now and he's not going anywhere. Any hope of its retirement for Clemens is gone IMO. I also don't think he was here long enough.
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Postby dimaggio5 » Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:23 pm

WharfRat wrote:
dimaggio5 wrote:I love Bernie who's a real class act however, I think his number should not be retired. As a Yankee, Bernie's production is very good. However, when considering the retirement of numbers, there are just too many other Yankees from the team's history for him to compete against. Guidry and Gossage come to mind from the 70's and even Randolph too. From the not too distant 90's O'niell. Just my opinion but, the only current Yankees worthy of this honor are Jeter and Rivera. However, I'm not so sure how the Yanks will handle 42 since this was Jackie Robinson's number and I know MLB retired that number for all the teams. Not sure if the Yanks can retire that number for Rivera. Besides, if the Yanks keep retiring numbers, it won;t be long before they have to start recycling them due to jersey shortages.


To me, this sounds like Bernie's getting penalized for playing for the most storied franchise in the world. I agree that he's not nearly as good as your Hall of Famers from the past, but statistically, as has been pointed out, he does stack up well against many of those other players. And if he had done exactly the same thing for another team, his numbers might be even more impressive and important for that ballclub, although I haven't actually done a comparison. But having the greatest collection of past players doesn't render current players less important, or less talented.

While statistics are helpful in comparing the past, don't rule out the importance he's had for THIS team, and THESE fans, in THIS era. He played centerfield and generally batted in the heart of the order for a four-time champion, a modern dynasty in every sense of the word. Let's face it, Jeter wouldn't be nearly as beloved or hallowed or whatever by you and I if the Yankees hadn't had those magical years (not to say we wouldn't like him; just that I think people wouldn't have developed this almost mythic status for him). And I think Bernie ought to reap the reward for those victories too.

quote wrote: Looks like I'll be in the minority here: I don't think Bernie's number ought to be retired. That's no knock on the guy - he was a terrific player and tends to get underrated by a lot of folks. I just think retired numbers should be reserved for the true legends. Ruth, Mantle, Gehrig? Yes. Guidry? No. Williams? No, as good as he is.


What do you think of Mattingly's number being retired? He's a Yankee icon, but he had the opposite career as Bernie: A sharp fall after a handful of great years, whereas Bernie had a longer climb and a lower but longer plateau. Plus, Mattingly won zilch. With retired numbers, I think longevity is definitely worth something. What about a guy like Biggio? He's a great Astro but not an all-time great; should his number be retired? And if the Astros had the history of the Yankees, and Biggio WASN'T a leader in all those categories, should he still be retired? I think with guys like Biggio or Bernie, who aren't all-time greats, longevity and relevance are reasons for retiring their numbers. Bernie is IDENTIFIED with the Yanks, just like Biggio is an Astro all the way.

RE: #42. The Yankees already have two #8s retired (for Yogi and Dickey, correct?). Why not do the same for Mo Riv and Jackie?



I didn't intend to make it sound that way but if you look at it this way. What epitomized the recent Yankee dynasty was the fact that these teams were not made up of superstars but of stars. Bernie was just a part of the brood of stars. Every season there was someone new who stepped up to lead the Yanks. Ex: Brosius, Wells, Tino, Oniell, Cone,Petite, Wetteland, etc. So that's why it hard to say Bernie was the stir that stirred the Yanks. It was more a cumulative effort which Bernie contributed to. Now he did have some major Yankee moments such as his xtra inning HR against Baltimore's closer Timlin (1996 postseason? not sure of the year). However, so did all the other Yankees mentioned above. Bernie was very important to the Yanks but so were Tino, Oniell and others.

If you want to look at some other Yankees of a different era, consider Moose Skowron, Hank Bauer, Tommy Henrich and Joe Pepitone, only to name a few. Yankee folklore is filled with stories of these players. They contributed mightily to the Yanks of the 50's and 60's much the same as Bernie did during the 90's. In addition, they played baseball during an era where the pitching was better and Yankee Stadium was a canyon in left center and center. In fact all the stadiums were larger (ex:Griffiths Stadium). These Yanks will forever hold a spot in Yankee fans hearts from that era, however, their numbers are not retired.

Now I don’t want to tout Jeter as the Yankee's savior during the 90's, but this guy just seemed to be in every major play of the Yankees championship era. Recall the flip in Oakland, The Kamikaze dive against Boston, the over the back catch into the stands against Atlanta, the HRs against the Mets in 2000. His big game plays are too numerous to recall in total. You have to admit that Jeter always seemed to thrive and shine brightest when the Yanks needed him most. Imagine how different the outcomes would have been had Jeter not made that play in Oakland or caught Nixon's foul ball which KO'd him from the game. Very different. In fact Jeter seems to have a competitive spirit much like that of Michael Jordan's. An extremely strong refusal to lose at all cost. This is why Jeter, IMO, has almost cemented the retirement of his jersey.

I don’t want to rub other Yankee fans the wrong way by saying this and it’s JUST MY OPINION. I loved Don Mattingly during his playing days, however, I do not feel his jersey should be retired. Again just my opinion. I kinda feel the same about Guidry too. Guidry, along with Munson, Catfish and Chambliss, was one of my favorite players from the 70’s.

As far as Clemens goes absolutely not. Maybe, if he had retired having played his last games as a Yankee, but not now.
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Postby disgruntledjetsfan » Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:54 pm

Bernie is my favorite Yankee ever, and I do think his number deserves to be retired. Think back to the 90s when Bernie continually stepped up in the playoffs, hitting key home runs against Texas, ATL, etc.

The other Yankees numbers that I think should be retired are: Jeter, Mariano Rivera, and (after he plays a few more seasons) Alex Rodriguez - because of the numbers that he is putting up.

But definitely Jeter, Bernie, and Mariano IMO.
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Postby blankman » Tue Jul 12, 2005 2:27 pm

disgruntledjetsfan wrote:But definitely Jeter, Bernie, and Mariano IMO.


Those are the big 3 to me. Alex has a decent chance if he's willing to play another 7-8 years.
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