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Rangers give Soriano for Wang and Cano? Yanks Say No

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Postby DaQ » Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:46 pm

blankman wrote: I completely disagree. Soriano can hit .280. Big friggin deal. Cano's hitting .289 as we speak.


You're a Yankees fan, so I'll give you the Wang argument (although Wang as your best SP is a scary thought :-o ), but you are incorrect on the Cano argument.

There is no way in h*ll Cano is hitting 40 HR's plus stealing 25+ bags as well, like Soriano can. Plus, .280 and .289 are reasonably close. But Soriano can do so many more thing offensively and that can definately help the Yanks this year more than Cano. If the Yanks need that clutch HR or need a SB to get a runner in scoring position, Soriano is the man to do it (over Cano). For this year atleast, Soriano is more productive offensively that Cano by a decent amount.

Maybe I should have re-phrased the last sentance to saying if the Yanks are going to make the playoffs and come up with a strong push, Soriano would definately help. They need a spark.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sat Jul 02, 2005 6:55 pm

TheYanks04 wrote:Soriano?...this thread cracks me up.

The same Soriano that K'ed 20+ times in the 2003 WS....admired balls that he thought were going out and got singles (twice)...has hands of stone, the brains of Tyson and the selfishness of Sosa?

Trade our top 2 young guys for what...a guy with no plate discilpline who ks too much, does not walk and despite the BS to the contrary spouted here, is nothing short of a hack in the field. Rangers do not want to pay Sorinao 12+M in arbitration next season and want to unload him now...have a nice day. The last thing this team needs is another poor fielding, high K, selfish, poor fundamentals ballplayer at the expense of what ist desparately needs, namely young talented pitching.

Guy has a bad streak, I guess he sucks. Wang is talented? Honestly I do not see what is so great about him. He gives up a lot of jacks, has decent velocity, doesn't strike anyone out. Probably a number #3 at best. Though its still a bad deal for the Yankees, because they aren't going to do anything this year and should keep their prospects. They should blow this team up, and start anew. Signing Randy Johnson instead of Beltran was a big mistake, even though both have underperformed.
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Postby blankman » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:13 pm

DaQ wrote:
blankman wrote: I completely disagree. Soriano can hit .280. Big friggin deal. Cano's hitting .289 as we speak.


You're a Yankees fan, so I'll give you the Wang argument (although Wang as your best SP is a scary thought :-o ), but you are incorrect on the Cano argument.

There is no way in h*ll Cano is hitting 40 HR's plus stealing 25+ bags as well, like Soriano can. Plus, .280 and .289 are reasonably close. But Soriano can do so many more thing offensively and that can definately help the Yanks this year more than Cano. If the Yanks need that clutch HR or need a SB to get a runner in scoring position, Soriano is the man to do it (over Cano). For this year atleast, Soriano is more productive offensively that Cano by a decent amount.

Maybe I should have re-phrased the last sentance to saying if the Yanks are going to make the playoffs and come up with a strong push, Soriano would definately help. They need a spark.


This isn't fantasy baseball buddy.

And for a clutch HR or SB? Soriano'd strike out on a pitch 10 feet out of the zone I'm sure of it.

The trade was never Cano for Soriano, and that's how you are treating it. So don't go calling me wrong about something that's not even the trade.

Sure this year Soriano should produce more than Cano alone, but would it really turn the team around? Absolutely not, because the trade is also taking away the team's best starter this year other than Mussina. They'd have only 3 healthy pitchers and obviously guys like Henn can't cut it in the Majors. It's a guarnteed loss 2 out of 5 games with the rotation destroyed like that and the top 3 have enough problems of their own already.

You have to also look to the future and having another highly paid guy that's 30 or close to it isn't helping things. Cano and Wang are 22 and 25 and make next to nothing. In 8 years, Soriano will probably be retired, but Cano and Wang will still be producing at 30 and 33 years old.

Most important:
Youth, pitching and defense are the problems on this team. And trading Cano and Wang for Soriano only makes the team older and the pitching and defense worse.

And btw, Cano's hitting .296 now ;-D
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Postby DaQ » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:48 pm

blankman wrote: And btw, Cano's hitting .296 now ;-D


Nice - I just picked him up in my keeper league ;-D


With your argument, I feel it is pretty strong, BUT you have to remember some things:

1.) The Yanks need a spark, and everyone knows it. Yes, trading away Cano and Wang will hurt the team down the road, but when are the Yanks ever thinging about the future? Hardly ever (that explains the farm system). Soriano can give the Yanks a spark because he is a big-name player (mental spark) and he can get dangerously hot at any time (on-the-field spark). My point was that the Yankees don't play for the future and they don't rebuild - they always play to win now. That's where Soriano comes in.

2.) If the Yanks are able to aquire a pitcher like Schmidt or another decent SP, then I would do this deal in a heartbeat. Schmidt (or whoever) would probably be that quality pitcher (that you describe Wang as now) and the trade would definately be easier.

So, you do have a strong argument (you are a Yankees fan as well), but I feel the Yanks are always playing to "win now" and that they definately need a change or some sort of spark to turn things around.

My chance to be the Mets fan that I am :-D :-D :*) :*) : Wang as your best SP (or one of your best) :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o
Last edited by DaQ on Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Big Papi » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:50 pm

How bout them Red Sox !+)
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Postby George_Foreman » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:16 pm

all the reports i've read on wang and cano have described them as mid-level prospects at best. remember when people were saying that the yanks just didn't have any top-teir guys in their farm system to trade away anymore? it's not like these two just slipped under the radar; they're not projected to become elite players.

don't get me wrong, cano and wang certainly can help the yankees, heck they're doing so right now. but soriano is one of the elite 2B in the game, even if fantasy does exagerate his value somewhat. to refuse to think he can help the yankees because he had a rough patch a few octobers ago is just plain absurd. if you want to say soriano wouldn't do well in the yankee club house or something to that effect, that's fine and probably a reasonable arguement can be made along those lines. but to hold on to two solid-but-certainly-not-outstanding ballplayers (regardless of how young they are) rather than get one of the best-hitting 2B in the league is rediculous, IMO.
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Postby blankman » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:23 pm

DaQ wrote: but when are the Yanks ever thinging about the future?


Now. That's why Cashman has said he will approve no trade involving Cano or Wang.


This year is nearly lost already; it makes much more sense to keep the prospects AND then sign Soriano for nothing but money if they feel its a good idea. Why lose the prospects just to get Soriano a few months earlier.

He wouldn't be a spark to fix the team, because he CAN'T PITCH. Losing their top-2 performance wise SP this year hinders their chances more than Soriano and his offense-only skills can make up for. Pitching is the horse you ride to the playoffs and taking out Wang for a 2B only chops one of the horse's legs off.
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Postby BronXBombers51 » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:24 pm

DaQ wrote:
blankman wrote: And btw, Cano's hitting .296 now ;-D


Nice - I just picked him up in my keeper league ;-D


With your argument, I feel it is pretty strong, BUT you have to remember some things:

1.) The Yanks need a spark, and everyone knows it. Yes, trading away Cano and Wang will hurt the team down the road, but when are the Yanks ever thinging about the future? Hardly ever (that explains the farm system). Soriano can give the Yanks a spark because he is a big-name player (mental spark) and he can get dangerously hot at any time (on-the-field spark). My point was that the Yankees don't play for the future and they don't rebuild - they always play to win now. That's where Soriano comes in.

2.) If the Yanks are able to aquire a pitcher like Schmidt or another decent SP, then I would do this deal in a heartbeat. Schmidt (or whoever) would probably be that quality pitcher (that you describe Wang as now) and the trade would definately be easier.

So, you do have a strong argument (you are a Yankees fan as well), but I feel the Yanks are always playing to "win now" and that they definately need a change or some sort of spark to turn things around.

My chance to be the Mets fan that I am :-D :-D :*) :*) : Wang as your best SP (or one of your best) :-o :-o :-o :-o :-o


So you're saying that you don't think the Yankees should do it, but don't believe they wouldn't because of their track record with young prospects? I can buy that. I thought you were saying it's dumb of the Yankees not to do this deal, which is what many people are saying, and it's what we are disagreeing with. The Yankees have never played for the future, but that's what we are desperately hoping they do now, we aren't saying it's a forgone conclusion that they will.

all the reports i've read on wang and cano have described them as mid-level prospects at best. remember when people were saying that the yanks just didn't have any top-teir guys in their farm system to trade away anymore? it's not like these two just slipped under the radar; they're not projected to become elite players.

don't get me wrong, cano and wang certainly can help the yankees, heck they're doing so right now. but soriano is one of the elite 2B in the game, even if fantasy does exagerate his value somewhat. to refuse to think he can help the yankees because he had a rough patch a few octobers ago is just plain absurd. if you want to say soriano wouldn't do well in the yankee club house or something to that effect, that's fine and probably a reasonable arguement can be made along those lines. but to hold on to two solid-but-certainly-not-outstanding ballplayers (regardless of how young they are) rather than get one of the best-hitting 2B in the league is rediculous, IMO.


And?
D'Angelo Jiminez was said to be MUCH better than Soriano. How'd that work out? Nobody saw Soriano being a legit 40-40 threat. He exploded in 2002 with power. He hit like 16 homeruns in 2001 as a number 9 hitter and followed that up with 39 the next year. Albert Pujols went in some ridiculous round of the draft, as did Mike Piazza.

Just because some scouts don't think you will be anything special doesn't mean you can't. There are hundreds of examples in every sport of guys who weren't projected to be anything, turn into stars.

And for the record, I'm not saying these two are stars, go back and look at my previous posts for my opinions on them.
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Postby soxwillchoke » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:01 pm

mweir145 wrote:
soxwillchoke wrote:
mweir145 wrote:In my opinion, you Yankee fans overrate those two prospects: Wang and Cano. As a Blue Jays fan, I've seen them play a bit more than most, but of course not as much as you guys. Ive also seen them alot on Fox Saturday baseball, where the Yankees are shown on Fox for the most part in my region of Toronto. Of the 3 times I've seen Wang pitch this year, the highest he's thrown was 91 mph, so I'm not sure where a number like 97 would come from. He also doesn't really look like he throws that hard anyway. He does have decent enough stats though for a big leaguer. As for Cano, I haven't seen him nearly as much as Wang, but he seems like a decent hitter and fielders with some flaws in both areas. In some games, I've seen him make some nice tag plays from Posada. Although, he really isn't anything that special, and nothing really to get excited about. These 2 will obviously turn into decent enough major leaguers but definitly not stars. Thats exactly why I really can't see why the Yankees would decline a trade like this for a stud like Soriano. It leads me to believe that the story wasn't true in the first place.


Wow, if you are able to evaluate prospects with such little exposure - and actually be right- you should quit your day job and be a major league scout.


I have no intention of becoming a major league scout anytime soon. Just because I post an opinion that isn't too popular among Yankees fans doesn't mean it is wrong. You asked me if I'm right? Well, only time will tell. But what do you think they will become in the major leagues? All Stars? Hall of Famers? I don't think so.


Who ever said they were HOFs? Who on earth could accurately predict that? Would you have called Doc Gooden a hall of famer after less than one half of a season in a rotation?

You haven't seen much of either player and you're overstating the value the Yankees have of him. It's a month away from the trading deadline, give it a rest.
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Postby mweir145 » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:57 pm

soxwillchoke wrote:
mweir145 wrote:
soxwillchoke wrote:
mweir145 wrote:In my opinion, you Yankee fans overrate those two prospects: Wang and Cano. As a Blue Jays fan, I've seen them play a bit more than most, but of course not as much as you guys. Ive also seen them alot on Fox Saturday baseball, where the Yankees are shown on Fox for the most part in my region of Toronto. Of the 3 times I've seen Wang pitch this year, the highest he's thrown was 91 mph, so I'm not sure where a number like 97 would come from. He also doesn't really look like he throws that hard anyway. He does have decent enough stats though for a big leaguer. As for Cano, I haven't seen him nearly as much as Wang, but he seems like a decent hitter and fielders with some flaws in both areas. In some games, I've seen him make some nice tag plays from Posada. Although, he really isn't anything that special, and nothing really to get excited about. These 2 will obviously turn into decent enough major leaguers but definitly not stars. Thats exactly why I really can't see why the Yankees would decline a trade like this for a stud like Soriano. It leads me to believe that the story wasn't true in the first place.


Wow, if you are able to evaluate prospects with such little exposure - and actually be right- you should quit your day job and be a major league scout.


I have no intention of becoming a major league scout anytime soon. Just because I post an opinion that isn't too popular among Yankees fans doesn't mean it is wrong. You asked me if I'm right? Well, only time will tell. But what do you think they will become in the major leagues? All Stars? Hall of Famers? I don't think so.


Who ever said they were HOFs? Who on earth could accurately predict that? Would you have called Doc Gooden a hall of famer after less than one half of a season in a rotation?

You haven't seen much of either player and you're overstating the value the Yankees have of him. It's a month away from the trading deadline, give it a rest.


Give me a break. If you even bothered to read the rest of this thread, than you would realize that I am not the only person who doesn't believe Wang and Cano are overly exceptional talents. Of course they are good enough to be in the major leagues but so many others are. It takes an extra special talent to even become an All Star let alone become a part of the HOF. I mean its pretty obvious that Wang doesn't and will never have the stuff to dominate a team like Roy Halladay or Pedro Martinez. As many others have said in this thread, he is projected to be about a #4-#5 starter on this Yankees team for years to come. Cano, I haven't seen as much from but I have seen a few lackluster plays on defense. My opinion at the time was that Soriano for these 2 straight up at the deadline would be good for the Yankees, but if you bothered to read the rest of the thread than you would know I had changed my mind based on what another said. Trading those 2 for 3 months of Alfonso Soriano definitly is not a good deal for the Yankees... that is of course unless they were able to lock him up long-term when the proposed deal occurs.

And if anything with that paragraph I wrote, I was understating Wang's value on the Yankees, not overstating it.
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