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Postby MMoNeY24 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:35 pm

They just really don't show any emotion. If they get called out on strikes (Burrell/Abreu), they don't even bother to have a word with the ump, they just walk back to the dugout with that, "it doesn't matter, i still make a ton of money" type look on their faces. My friend went to one of the Phillies/Mets games this past series and Burrell, Utley, and some reliever wouldn't sign for him and just walked right by him, but Thome did. I think Thome has heart, he's just struggling now which is kind of getting him down, atleast that's what I think.
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Postby Amazinz » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:40 pm

It's difficult to cite an example without being able to show you video of the game because the impression comes from the way he carries himself and interacts with the other Phillies. (Definitely not a scientific observation. :-) ) Obviously Abreu is a great player. The stats are telling and I'm not arguing otherwise. But take this past three game series, for example. I know it's only the mid-point but this was still a fairly important series for both teams and Abreu comes across like he'd rather be golfing.
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Postby flyguys20 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:53 pm

As a Phils phan (still admitting it), I agree totally with the assertion that many of the players, including Abreu, are not fiery and come off as not being dedicated to the team or to winning. Especially on defense -- where he frequently loafs after fly balls and shies away from contact with the padded outfield wall -- Abreu often looks like he's giving minimal effort. Plus, he takes sooooo many pitches, he sometimes appears sleepy. Some of the other guys -- Burrell, Michaels, Lieberthal, for instance -- have glaring holes in their game or their swings and year after year do little to change their approaches at the plate to be more consistent. Watch the Phils sometime, and see how may double plays Lieberthal can hit in to. A buddy of mine and I have a running bet -- Liebey's like an 85% sure thing to hit into 2 if he has a chance. Don't even get started with Bell. He's a gamer, baseball's in his blood, good defensively, blah, blah, blah. He can't hit for any pop (never has), and it's a huge hole from your 3B. They would have been better off benching Bell, keeping Polanco and just letting Utley play. He and Rollins form a nice tandem for the future.

The pitching staff is cursed with the same problem as it has been for a few years -- no true "ace". Myers looked like he might be one, but he's slipped. Lieber was a nice signing as a #2 or #3, but he's not a #1. This is precisely why the Phils should have re-acquired Schilling 2 offseasons ago when Arizona was shopping him.

The Phils central problem is that they are a team of 25 players that takes 25 cabs to the ballpark. Contrasting them with the Red Sox, which we had the chance to do when the World Champs were in Philly last weekend to launch some bad pitches over the fence, was so obvious it was scary. The Sox love each other, love being at the park, chat with the fans, are involved, laugh during games, emote, etc. The Phils barely seem to know each other, don't interact with anyone at the park, and appear more interested in just getting the paycheck and being average (another 86 win season).

It's a fundamental flaw in the construction of the team -- too many average guys with obvious holes and not enough fire. The emotional parts of the team -- Wagner, Myers, Todd Pratt -- just can't pull the larger part of the club from the well.
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Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:12 pm

I fully agree with the "no heart" chatter. However, another problem with the PHillies is the fact that they have no leader whatsoever. Let's look at some of their better players.

Rollins: Love the way he plays, goes hard. Problem is, he seems to have a personality that says just play hard and don't worry about others. On most teams (i.e. the Red Sox) this would be fine and in many ways a good thing. However, with the other guys the Phillies have, this just doesn't work.

Utley: Young, so it is difficult to tell. From what I've seen of him so far, he seems like a pretty decent leader and he does make an effort on the field. However, if a rookie needs to lead this team, the Phils are in trouble.

Thome: An awesome guy. an awesome player. Always tries. Does his job. Similar to Rollins. Main problem with Thome on this team is that he is super-quiet.

Abreu: Fantasy stud, not nearly as good of a real player. Phillies should try and trade him to the Yankees, he'd fit in well with that team. Abreu obviously has the tools to be one of the best in the game. However, he makes many many bonehead errors on the basepaths (many of them selfish plays). In addition, he fears the wall, makes some awful throws, misses cutoff men etc. Also, every time Abreu comes up in clutch situations, he hits into outs. This is because pitchers raise their level of play, while for some reason Abreu does not.

Burrell: There's a reason he's nicknamed Pat the Bat. That's all he is: a bat. He's an overpriced bat. Burrell plays little to no defense, and is an extremely slow baserunner. Also, Burrell goes into huge bursts followed by huge slumps. no thanks.

Lieberthal: Awful. Occasionally he jacks one for a HR. However, other than that he is basically worthless. No emotion whatsoever. Honestly, the Phillies need to bench him or buy out some of his salary. Pratt, although he may not be as talented a hitter, is a much better team player and also understands what catching entails. In case anyone is wondering why the great arms of the Phils' struggle, look no further than Lieberthal. I also find it very interesting that, to man, almost all of the Phillies pitchers (and even some of them publicly) agree that they'd rather have Pratt catchign than Lieberthal.

Okay, that's it. Anyways, Phils = no teamwork + many overpriced players who don't care + no leader. What they need to do is go out and get a leader who does the little things (not sure who's out there though).
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Postby This is the year » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:16 pm

buffalobillsrul2002 wrote: What they need to do is go out and get a leader who does the little things (not sure who's out there though).


I hear Ricky Henderson's looking for a job :*)

Anyway, thanks a lot for the explanations, I know a lot more now than I did before reading this thread. It's too bad, because that team is full of talent, they just need to adjust a few things (3B, SP, team chemistry) and they could contend for a playoff spot.

Would you guys take Bill Mueller and cash for Billy Wagner?
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Postby nuggets » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:23 pm

Yoda wrote:Their rotation is atrocious after Myers. And even Myers is starting to slip back into the mendoza line.


Explain how a pitcher can "slip back into the mendoza line"?
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Postby nsulham » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:26 pm

This is the year wrote:
buffalobillsrul2002 wrote: What they need to do is go out and get a leader who does the little things (not sure who's out there though).


I hear Ricky Henderson's looking for a job :*)

Anyway, thanks a lot for the explanations, I know a lot more now than I did before reading this thread. It's too bad, because that team is full of talent, they just need to adjust a few things (3B, SP, team chemistry) and they could contend for a playoff spot.

Would you guys take Bill Mueller and cash for Billy Wagner?


They've already got a banged-up 3B in Bell. Why would they want another one?

IF anything happened I could maybe see either Arroyo or a pair of prospects (Shoppach and someone else) for Wagner.
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Postby nuggets » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:30 pm

flyguys20 wrote:As a Phils phan (still admitting it), I agree totally with the assertion that many of the players, including Abreu, are not fiery and come off as not being dedicated to the team or to winning. Especially on defense -- where he frequently loafs after fly balls and shies away from contact with the padded outfield wall -- Abreu often looks like he's giving minimal effort. Plus, he takes sooooo many pitches, he sometimes appears sleepy. Some of the other guys -- Burrell, Michaels, Lieberthal, for instance -- have glaring holes in their game or their swings and year after year do little to change their approaches at the plate to be more consistent. Watch the Phils sometime, and see how may double plays Lieberthal can hit in to. A buddy of mine and I have a running bet -- Liebey's like an 85% sure thing to hit into 2 if he has a chance. Don't even get started with Bell. He's a gamer, baseball's in his blood, good defensively, blah, blah, blah. He can't hit for any pop (never has), and it's a huge hole from your 3B. They would have been better off benching Bell, keeping Polanco and just letting Utley play. He and Rollins form a nice tandem for the future.

The pitching staff is cursed with the same problem as it has been for a few years -- no true "ace". Myers looked like he might be one, but he's slipped. Lieber was a nice signing as a #2 or #3, but he's not a #1. This is precisely why the Phils should have re-acquired Schilling 2 offseasons ago when Arizona was shopping him.

The Phils central problem is that they are a team of 25 players that takes 25 cabs to the ballpark. Contrasting them with the Red Sox, which we had the chance to do when the World Champs were in Philly last weekend to launch some bad pitches over the fence, was so obvious it was scary. The Sox love each other, love being at the park, chat with the fans, are involved, laugh during games, emote, etc. The Phils barely seem to know each other, don't interact with anyone at the park, and appear more interested in just getting the paycheck and being average (another 86 win season).

It's a fundamental flaw in the construction of the team -- too many average guys with obvious holes and not enough fire. The emotional parts of the team -- Wagner, Myers, Todd Pratt -- just can't pull the larger part of the club from the well.


I believe that part of that flaw is the attitude the City has toward it's teams. In football maybe a harsh comment and a boo can get a guy going but in baseball a crappy attitude seems to go nowhere. I mean Yankees fan migh be hard on thier players, but it always seems to be in the name of making the team better. The feeling I get from the general Philldehphia fan base is "awe we suck, you suck, my life sucks- I don't care." And that has to carry over to the players in some way.
I may be very wrong, but the Phillidephia fan has been profiled quite a bit in the media over the last few years and this is my impression.

Who would want to play there? What is the management, the front office and the local governments attitude toward the Phillies?
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Postby This is the year » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:32 pm

nsulham wrote:They've already got a banged-up 3B in Bell. Why would they want another one?

IF anything happened I could maybe see either Arroyo or a pair of prospects (Shoppach and someone else) for Wagner.



I was kidding, though Mueller is clearly an upgrade over Bell.

I'm not sure I'd want to trade Bronson and Shoppach plus another prospect for Rent-A-Wagner. I'm not too attached to Shoppach, but Bronson has a lot of value in his ability to dominate right handed hitters and work either out of the pen or the starting rotation. It would depend on who the other prospect was -- certainly not somebody like Sanchez, Hanley, Pedroia, Papelbon, Lester
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Postby buffalobillsrul2002 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:38 pm

Actually, the Mueller for Wagner deal seems to make sense from a baseball perspecive. What I think the Phils should do is get rid of Lieberthal somehow. Maybe Arizona (or Baltimore?) would take him for a bag of baseballs and a case of beer.
My proposed 3-way deal:

Arizona gets:
Lieberthal
Prospect from Red Sox (not a top prospect, lower-level long-shot we're talking here)
Bag of Baseballs
Case of Beer ;-D

Phillies get:
Mueller

Red Sox get:
Wagner

Hey, at least the Phillies could try it?
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