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Dear Brian Cashman, get Terrence Long.

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Postby blankman » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:51 pm

I'm willing to bet that any other team dependency like protection wouldn't account for the 18 pt difference. Looks like your loss david :-/
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Postby dimaggio5 » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:40 pm

uucrook3d wrote:dimaggio i think you need to recognize that marver isnt comparing damon now to kotsay now. he is comparing a 28 year old damon to kotsay now. there is a huge difference it seems like you are ignoring.



I ignore nothing, I’m just not one eye blind to the sum of the whole picture as opposed to being one eye focused upon one singular fact or event.

uucrook3d, please go back to the beginning, about 2 pages back, to see how the debate began. This issue is a lot deeper and larger than just comparing Kotsay’s and Damon’s stats at 28.
Last edited by dimaggio5 on Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dimaggio5 » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:51 pm

So the million dollar question now is, with all things being equal would you trade a 28 year old Damon for a 28 year old Kotsay? Would you trade a 29 yr old Damon for a 29 yr old Kotsay? Would you trade a 30 year old Damon for a 30 yr old Kotsay. I see a divergence happening. So given this divergence, would you do this trade? And this divergence was not something totally unexpected or unpredictable.

The most important factor which is being omitted is that Damon has batted leadoff about 99.1% of the times and while in KC he played on one of the most hapless and inept offensive teams in baseball. Kotsay for the most part has batted mostly 2, some leadoff and then anywhere from 5 to 7. These spots offer better opportunites for production and stats than leadoff. Therefore there should not be a relative closeness in numbers but yet there are. Negative aspect. While in KC Damon absolutely had no supporting cast batting in front of him and behind him. So this makes his production that much more significant. Kotsay had Castillo, Floyd, Wilson and Lowell around him in Florida. In SD he had Finley, Nevin, Klesko. Considering this factor Kotsay should have posted far better numbers than Damon’s but didn’t but yet the support was there. Plus Damon was consistent. Consistency is a better indicator of future events than iconsistency.

Whether discussing business, investments, strategy, military action or anything that involves planning or a decisive action, there are many factors which must be considered to arrive at a final outcome. Military action based solely on soft intel is a recipe for destruction as well as blunt military force without soft intel. Investing based solely on fundamentals leaves one position exposed to unmeasured risk as well as investing without considering the fundamentals. Statistics is an imperfect science. Presented alone it is meaningless and often it can be misleading, manipulated and misconstrued.

If you make 2 separate investments of different denominations and risk. 1000.00 in a conservative safe investment and 100,000.00 in a very high risk one. After 1 month your 1000.00 has gone up 10.00 and your 100,000.00 has gone up an equivalent amount 10.00. Would you say that based on the fact that both investment have gone up exactly 10.00 that both are equal and therefore offer a similar return? No, regardless of the fact both have gone up 10.00 equally the characteristics of both investments are not equal. One is safe and only 1000.00 was invested while the other was extremely risky and it was a 100,000 invested. So based on this scenario, would you sell your 1000.00 safe investment to buy 1000 more of the higher risk investment thus making it an investment of 101,000 with the realistic expectation to make 20.00?

Stats and statistics alone are meaningless. They are tools to be used in conjunction with other information and facts to paint a more total and complete picture. Stated differently, stats should be used as a tool only and not the deciding or most weighted factor behind any decision. One should not be so hypocritical to use stats in one issue, while disregarding other factors pertinent to that case, to prove their point. Only to then use both stats and outside factors, in their next issue, in order to add credibility to their position. Consistency, consistency, consistency. Debating without consistency is hypocrisy. One ingredient doesn;t make the recipe.
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Postby davidmarver » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:44 am

The most important factor which is being omitted is that Damon has batted leadoff about 99.1% of the times and while in KC he played on one of the most hapless and inept offensive teams in baseball. Kotsay for the most part has batted mostly 2, some leadoff and then anywhere from 5 to 7. These spots offer better opportunites for production and stats than leadoff. Therefore there should not be a relative closeness in numbers but yet there are. Negative aspect. While in KC Damon absolutely had no supporting cast batting in front of him and behind him. So this makes his production that much more significant. Kotsay had Castillo, Floyd, Wilson and Lowell around him in Florida. In SD he had Finley, Nevin, Klesko. Considering this factor Kotsay should have posted far better numbers than Damon’s but didn’t but yet the support was there. Plus Damon was consistent. Consistency is a better indicator of future events than iconsistency.


First of all, Kotsay was never in San Diego when Steve Finley was. Finley left after the '98 season; Kotsay arrived in 2001. Second of all, Kotsay never had any sort of lineup when he was here. Here's the opening day lineup for each season Kotsay was here:

2001
C - Ben Davis
1b - Ryan Klesko
2b - Damian Jackson
3b - Phil Nevin
SS - D'Angelo Jiminez
LF - Ricky Henderson
CF - Mark Kotsay
RF - Bubba Trammell

2002
C - Tom Lampkin
1b - Ryan Klesko
2b - Ramon Vazquez
3b - Phil Nevin
SS - Deivi Cruz
LF - Ron Gant
CF - Mark Kotsay
RF - Bubba Trammell

2003
C - Gary Bennett
1b - Ryan Klesko
2b - Mark Loretta
3b - Sean Burroughs
SS - Ramon Vazquez
LF - Rondell White
CF - Mark Kotsay
RF - Xavier Nady

You call that protection???

You are forgetting that Damon played with some players who had darn good years in Kansas City. Jeff King, Dean Palmer, Jermaine Dye, Mike Sweeney, Jose Offerman, Jay Bell, Chili Davis, Gary Gaetti, Carlos Beltran, Joe Randa, Mark Quinn, etc. It was never really the hitting that killed KC, but the pitching. The KC lineups that Damon was in are much better than the Padres lineups that Kotsay were in.

Look at the season both Kotsay and Damon had in Oakland. As a 27 year old, Damon hit .256 with 9 homers, a .324 OBP, and .363 SLG with Jason Giambi (.288 32 114), Miguel Tejada (.267 31 113), and Eric Chavez (.288 32 114) in that lineup. Kotsay last year, at the age of 28, hit .314 with 15 homers, a .370 OBP, and .459 SLG for Oakland in a much more depleted lineup.

Just wanted to say this now, too. Johnny Damon has 57 career outfield assists in 1407 games played (6.5 per 162). Kotsay has 95 in 973 games played (15.8 per 162).

The bottom line
You should not be calling the person who had the fifth most hits, finished eighth in batting average, ninth in at-bats per strikeout, and fourteenth in MVP voting (tied with ARod and in front of Damon...in fact Damon has as many MVP votes in his career as Kotsay recieved last season) last season "junk", nor should you be calling him "mediocre". The guy can play centerfield better than anyone currently on the Yankees; he would be a very valuable asset.
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Postby davidmarver » Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:04 am

Wanted to note that the fielding numbers don't include this season...Kotsay's thrown out 6 thus far, Damon 1.
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Postby dimaggio5 » Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:29 am

davidmarver wrote:
The most important factor which is being omitted is that Damon has batted leadoff about 99.1% of the times and while in KC he played on one of the most hapless and inept offensive teams in baseball. Kotsay for the most part has batted mostly 2, some leadoff and then anywhere from 5 to 7. These spots offer better opportunites for production and stats than leadoff. Therefore there should not be a relative closeness in numbers but yet there are. Negative aspect. While in KC Damon absolutely had no supporting cast batting in front of him and behind him. So this makes his production that much more significant. Kotsay had Castillo, Floyd, Wilson and Lowell around him in Florida. In SD he had Finley, Nevin, Klesko. Considering this factor Kotsay should have posted far better numbers than Damon’s but didn’t but yet the support was there. Plus Damon was consistent. Consistency is a better indicator of future events than iconsistency.


First of all, Kotsay was never in San Diego when Steve Finley was. Finley left after the '98 season; Kotsay arrived in 2001. Second of all, Kotsay never had any sort of lineup when he was here. Here's the opening day lineup for each season Kotsay was here:

2001
C - Ben Davis
1b - Ryan Klesko
2b - Damian Jackson
3b - Phil Nevin
SS - D'Angelo Jiminez
LF - Ricky Henderson
CF - Mark Kotsay
RF - Bubba Trammell

2002
C - Tom Lampkin
1b - Ryan Klesko
2b - Ramon Vazquez
3b - Phil Nevin
SS - Deivi Cruz
LF - Ron Gant
CF - Mark Kotsay
RF - Bubba Trammell

2003
C - Gary Bennett
1b - Ryan Klesko
2b - Mark Loretta
3b - Sean Burroughs
SS - Ramon Vazquez
LF - Rondell White
CF - Mark Kotsay
RF - Xavier Nady

You call that protection???

You are forgetting that Damon played with some players who had darn good years in Kansas City. Jeff King, Dean Palmer, Jermaine Dye, Mike Sweeney, Jose Offerman, Jay Bell, Chili Davis, Gary Gaetti, Carlos Beltran, Joe Randa, Mark Quinn, etc. It was never really the hitting that killed KC, but the pitching. The KC lineups that Damon was in are much better than the Padres lineups that Kotsay were in.

Look at the season both Kotsay and Damon had in Oakland. As a 27 year old, Damon hit .256 with 9 homers, a .324 OBP, and .363 SLG with Jason Giambi (.288 32 114), Miguel Tejada (.267 31 113), and Eric Chavez (.288 32 114) in that lineup. Kotsay last year, at the age of 28, hit .314 with 15 homers, a .370 OBP, and .459 SLG for Oakland in a much more depleted lineup.

Just wanted to say this now, too. Johnny Damon has 57 career outfield assists in 1407 games played (6.5 per 162). Kotsay has 95 in 973 games played (15.8 per 162).

The bottom line
You should not be calling the person who had the fifth most hits, finished eighth in batting average, ninth in at-bats per strikeout, and fourteenth in MVP voting (tied with ARod and in front of Damon...in fact Damon has as many MVP votes in his career as Kotsay recieved last season) last season "junk", nor should you be calling him "mediocre". The guy can play centerfield better than anyone currently on the Yankees; he would be a very valuable asset.




Here we go again with the halfsies and part of the story. You really have a knack for non disclosure and spinning.

Comparing Kotsay to Bernie Williams or any current Yankee CF is like comparing a current Eva Langoria to a current Kirstie Alley and asking a normal heterosexual male “whom would you prefer to shag”. Or from another prospective asking a male whom he would prefer to date between Lindsey Lohan (Kotsay) and Chelsea Clinton (Womack). The responses would be rather obvious I would hope and think.


OK, I erred on the Finley and I’ll admit that and own up to it. However boy you can spin. SPIN SPIN SPIN. Half the facts half the story. A lil bit of information is a very dangerous weapon in your hands. What half decent player didn’t you name from the Royals? What was wrong with the production of these players from those Padres teams: Bubba Trammell, D Jimenez, Ron Gant, Burroughs, Rondell White, X Nady, Mark Loretta, Ricky Henderson? They Hit, Stole, Scored and Droves runs in didn't they? Say, you even had Tony Gwynn and Langford off the bench. Bay and Greene in 2003. That't not too bad. How can you even mention Mark Quinn and consider him to be “support” but yet not even consider Rondell White adequate for Kotsay. Was Bubba Trammell that much of a stinker? Gee the stats for those teams don’t look so bad? You’ve really reached for the bottom of the barrel with these straws. Let’s clarify some stats. First of all, seeing all those names from the Royals one can’t help but to be surprised why they hadn’t won the AL Central given all that talent. But upon closer examination of all those players, they were Royals but at different times. Some were not yet established yet (Sweeney) or were still rookies (Beltran). And what’s not shown in the stats was that Damon had Carlos Febles batting around him in the 9th or 2 hole from 99-2000. As for the 2001-03 Padres, I see a lot of names in front of Kotsay and Bubba or Nady behind him. That’s not too bad wouldn’t you say? Let’s look at Bubba’s numbers with the Padres. Looks like he produced for you guys.


Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG
1997 Tigers
44 123 14 28 5 0 4 13 15 0 35 0 2 0 2 .228 .307 .366
1998 Devil Rays
59 199 28 57 18 1 12 35 16 0 45 0 1 0 4 .286 .338 .568
1999 Devil Rays
82 283 49 82 19 0 14 39 43 1 37 0 1 1 7 .290 .384 .505
2000 Devil Rays
66 189 19 52 11 2 7 33 21 0 30 0 1 2 5 .275 .352 .466
2000 Mets
36 56 9 13 2 0 3 12 8 0 19 0 1 0 3 .232 .323 .429
2001 Padres
142 490 66 128 20 3 25 92 48 2 78 0 4 4 10 .261 .330 .467
2002 Padres
133 403 54 98 16 1 17 56 53 2 71 3 3 3 6 .243 .333 .414
2003 Yankees
22 55 4 11 5 0 0 5 6 0 10 0 0 0 1 .200 .279 .291



OK, let’s take a CLOSER look at Damon’s team of support with the Royals. These are the players whom made an impact enough to support Damon. In 1995, only Gaetti. 1996, Offerman and Randa. For the life of me I can’t see how you can even use these 2 players names other than to fluff up your argument. Randa’s a rather light hitting 3B and Offerman a very light hitting contact 2B. What kind of strong protection or support did they offer? In fact I consider 96 as NO SUPPORT for Damon. 1997 King , Bell, Davis, Offerman. Again let’s be honest now should Offerman even be considered. 1998 Offerman (why???), King, Palmer. 1999 Dye, Sweeney and Beltran first year as pro but was still inconsistent and shaky to be considered a threat. 2000 Dye, Sweeney. Randa and Quinn had their best years as Royals. Damon’s largest and strongest concentration of support was in 2000. He had no support in 1995,1996. Dubious support in 1998 and even 1997. 1999 was decent to strong support. In summation, Damon had 1 Strong support, 1 Decent to Strong support, 2 Dubious and Debatable support and 2 No support. This showed a tendency for no support for Damon other than 2 seasons. Here are the player statistics for those years.

1995
Damon
Year Team G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1995 KC 47 188 53 11 5 3 23 32 12 22 7 0 .282 .325 .441 .766
Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG
Gaetti
1995 Royals
137 514 76 134 27 0 35 96 47 6 91 3 6 8 7 .261 .329 .518
Sweeney
1995 Royals
4 4 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 .250 .250 .250
Randa
1995 Royals
34 70 6 12 2 0 1 5 6 0 17 0 0 0 2 .171 .237 .243



1996
Damon
Year Team G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1996 KC 145 517 140 22 5 6 50 61 31 64 25 5 .271 .312 .368 .680
Offerman
Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG
1996 Royals
151 561 85 170 33 8 5 47 74 3 98 7 2 1 9 .303 .384 .417
Sweeney
1996 Royals
50 165 23 46 10 0 4 24 18 0 21 0 3 4 7 .279 .358 .412
Randa
1996 Royals
110 337 36 102 24 1 6 47 26 4 47 2 4 1 10 .303 .351 .433


1997
Damon
Year Team G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1997 KC 146 472 130 12 8 8 48 70 42 70 16 10 .275 .335 .386 .720
Palmer
Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG
1997 Royals
49 187 23 52 10 1 9 31 15 0 50 0 2 2 3 .278 .335 .487
King
1997 Royals
155 543 84 129 30 1 28 112 89 4 96 1 12 2 9 .238 .341 .451
Dye
1997 Royals
75 263 26 62 14 0 7 22 17 0 51 1 1 1 6 .236 .284 .369
Bell
1997 Royals
153 573 89 167 28 3 21 92 71 2 101 3 9 4 13 .291 .368 .461
Davis
1997 Royals
140 477 71 133 20 0 30 90 85 16 96 0 4 1 15 .279 .386 .509
Sweeney
1997 Royals
84 240 30 58 8 0 7 31 17 0 33 1 2 6 8 .242 .306 .363
Offerman
1997 Royals
106 424 59 126 23 6 2 39 41 3 64 6 0 0 5 .297 .359 .394


1998
Damon
Year Team G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1998 KC 161 642 178 30 10 18 66 104 58 84 26 12 .277 .337 .439 .776
Palmer
Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG
1998 Royals
152 572 84 159 27 2 34 119 48 3 134 0 13 6 18 .278 .333 .510
King
1998 Royals
131 486 83 128 17 1 24 93 42 1 73 0 10 2 10 .263 .319 .451
Dye
1998 Royals
60 214 24 50 5 1 5 23 11 2 46 0 4 1 8 .234 .270 .336
Offerman
1998 Royals
158 607 102 191 28 13 7 66 89 1 96 2 6 5 7 .315 .403 .438
Sweeney
1998 Royals
92 282 32 73 18 0 8 35 24 1 38 2 1 2 7 .259 .320 .408
Beltran
1998 Royals
14 58 12 16 5 3 0 7 3 0 12 0 1 1 2 .276 .317 .466
Randa
1998 Tigers
138 460 56 117 21 2 9 50 41 1 70 3 3 7 9 .254 .323 .367




1999
Damon
Year Team G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1999 KC 145 583 179 39 9 14 77 101 67 50 36 6 .307 .378 .477 .855
King
Team G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB SO SH SF HBP GIDP AVG OBP SLG
1999 Royals
21 72 14 17 2 0 3 11 15 1 10 0 1 3 1 .236 .385 .389
Dye
1999 Royals
158 608 96 179 44 8 27 119 58 4 119 0 6 1 17 .294 .354 .526
Sweeney
1999 Royals
150 575 101 185 44 2 22 102 54 0 48 0 4 10 21 .322 .387 .520
Beltran
1999 Royals
156 628 92 197 36 8 16 84 50 4 80 1 7 3 15 .314 .363 .473
Quinn
1999 Royals
17 60 11 20 4 1 6 18 4 0 11 0 0 1 1 .333 .385 .733


2000
Damon
Year Team G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
2000 KC 159 655 214 42 10 16 88 136 65 60 46 9 .327 .388 .495 .882
Dye
2000 Royals
157 601 107 193 41 2 33 118 69 6 99 0 6 3 12 .321 .390 .561
Sweeney
2000 Royals
159 618 105 206 30 0 29 144 71 5 67 0 13 15 15 .333 .407 .523
Beltran
2000 Royals
98 372 49 92 15 4 7 44 35 2 69 2 4 0 12 .247 .309 .366
Randa
2000 Royals
158 612 88 186 29 4 15 106 36 3 66 1 10 6 19 .304 .343 .438
Quinn
2000 Royals
135 500 76 147 33 2 20 78 35 1 91 3 3 3 11 .294 .342 .488


Here are the Padre stats for those “stinky” Padre teams you mentioned Kotsay had “no support” with. Looks pretty good to me wouldn’t you say? Kotsay only had one year with weak support 2003 and that was due to Nevin’s injury.


2001
Pos Player Ag G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG SB CS GDP HBP SH SF IBB OPS+
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+
C #Ben Davis 24 138 448 56 107 20 0 11 57 66 112 .239 .337 .357 4 4 13 4 1 7 5 88
1B *Ryan Klesko 30 146 538 105 154 34 6 30 113 88 89 .286 .384 .539 23 4 16 3 0 9 7 145
2B Damian Jackson 27 122 440 67 106 21 6 4 38 44 128 .241 .316 .343 23 6 6 6 2 3 2 78
3B Phil Nevin 30 149 546 97 167 31 0 41 126 71 147 .306 .388 .588 4 4 13 4 0 3 7 158
SS #D'Angelo Jimenez 23 86 308 45 85 19 0 3 33 39 68 .276 .355 .367 2 3 9 0 0 2 4 96
LF Rickey Henderson 42 123 379 70 86 17 3 8 42 81 84 .227 .366 .351 25 7 8 3 0 2 0 95
CF *Mark Kotsay 25 119 406 67 118 29 1 10 58 48 58 .291 .366 .441 13 5 11 2 1 3 1 116
RF Bubba Trammell 29 142 490 66 128 20 3 25 92 48 78 .261 .330 .467 2 2 10 4 0 4 2 112
DH *Dave Magadan 38 91 128 12 32 7 0 1 12 12 20 .250 .317 .328 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 75

2002
Pos Player Ag G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG SB CS GDP HBP SH SF IBB OPS+
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+
C *Tom Lampkin 38 104 281 32 61 10 1 10 37 38 59 .217 .313 .367 4 2 4 3 1 4 7 85
1B *Ryan Klesko 31 146 540 90 162 39 1 29 95 76 86 .300 .388 .537 6 2 7 4 1 4 11 150
2B *Ramon Vazquez 25 128 423 50 116 21 5 2 32 45 79 .274 .344 .362 7 2 6 1 3 2 3 93
3B Phil Nevin 31 107 407 53 116 16 0 12 57 38 87 .285 .344 .413 4 0 12 1 0 4 4 106
SS Deivi Cruz 29 151 514 49 135 28 2 7 47 22 58 .263 .294 .366 2 3 20 3 3 5 2 79
LF Ron Gant 37 102 309 58 81 14 1 18 59 36 59 .262 .338 .489 4 6 8 2 1 5 1 123
CF *Mark Kotsay 26 153 578 82 169 27 7 17 61 59 89 .292 .359 .452 11 9 10 3 2 4 0 120
RF Bubba Trammell 30 133 403 54 98 16 1 17 56 53 71 .243 .333 .414 1 3 6 3 3 3 2 103
DH Trenidad Hubbard 36 89 129 16 27 5 0 1 7 14 28 .209 .285 .271 9 6 3 0 0 1 0 53

#D'Angelo Jimenez 24 87 321 39 77 11 4 3 33 34 63 .240 .311 .327 4 2 10 0 0 2 1 75
#Gene Kingsale 25 89 216 27 60 10 3 2 28 20 47 .278 .346 .380 9 2 5 3 3 1 0 98
*Ray Lankford 35 81 205 20 46 7 1 6 26 30 61 .224 .326 .356 2 2 3 2 1 2 3 87
*Sean Burroughs 21 63 192 18 52 5 1 1 11 12 30 .271 .317 .323 2 0 6 1 1 0 1 76


2003
Pos Player Ag G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG SB CS GDP HBP SH SF IBB OPS+
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+
C Gary Bennett 31 96 307 26 73 15 0 2 42 24 48 .238 .296 .306 3 0 8 2 3 2 3 64
1B *Ryan Klesko 32 121 397 47 100 18 0 21 67 65 83 .252 .354 .456 2 5 11 3 0 9 5 118
2B Mark Loretta 31 154 589 74 185 28 4 13 72 54 62 .314 .372 .441 5 4 17 3 3 4 2 120
3B *Sean Burroughs 22 146 517 62 148 27 6 7 58 44 75 .286 .352 .402 7 2 13 11 2 4 4 105
SS *Ramon Vazquez 26 116 422 56 110 17 4 3 30 52 88 .261 .342 .341 10 3 4 2 5 3 2 87
LF Rondell White 31 115 413 49 115 17 3 18 66 25 71 .278 .330 .465 1 4 11 8 0 3 2 113
CF *Mark Kotsay 27 128 482 64 128 28 4 7 38 56 82 .266 .343 .384 6 3 8 1 1 1 3 97
RF Xavier Nady 24 110 371 50 99 17 1 9 39 24 74 .267 .321 .391 6 2 14 6 2 1 0 92
DH Brian Buchanan 29 115 198 29 52 10 2 8 29 24 51 .263 .346 .455 6 2 8 3 0 3 1 116

#Gary Matthews 28 103 306 50 83 19 1 4 22 34 66 .271 .346 .379 12 5 4 1 0 0 0 97
Phil Nevin 32 59 226 30 63 8 0 13 46 21 44 .279 .339 .487 2 0 9 0 0 1 1 121
Lou Merloni 32 65 151 20 41 7 2 1 17 22 33 .272 .362 .364 2 3 3 1 2 3 2 98
Miguel Ojeda 28 61 141 13 33 6 0 4 22 18 26 .234 .331 .362 1 1 2 3 0 1 2 89


Damon’s growth as a player was normal. Rather slow, gradual but constant. First full season was in 96 and he took his game to the next level in 98 a year he had dubious support. The next year he received some unexpected support and bettered his average. But his other numbers were consistent with his growth and develop. No spikes or jumps occurred which would have suggested that the players around him spurred his numbers. So therefore his production is attributed to his normal development and growth as a player. In 2000, his numbers spiked and this is the year you can honestly say his support lent him a hand in pushing his numbers. Plus I believe this might’ve been his Free Agent walk year.

If you go back to my prior post which started this specific thread, I intentionally excluded mentioning his stats with the A’s and Bosox in order to avoid another round of “petty statistics” spinning so I focused only on the Royals and continue to do so. So whatever the A’s did while Damon played for them means nothing in your retort since my concentration was only on the Royals and no more. Besides Damon’s growth was stunted or took a step back while with the A’s. Damon’s growth has been constant and consistent throughout his career. Kotsay has been erratic and rather inconsistent beginning with his days as a Marlin. I’m sure he’s a better player now than 2 or even 5 years back but not much so. Damon and Kotsay are apples and oranges. Besides the 2004 A's weren't a bad hitting team so I think it is safe to say he had support in that lineup. Here are the stats for the 2004 A's. Not too shabby wouldn't you say? In fact, I'd say Kotsay's support was a whole lot better than Damon's support was for the years he was a Royal - No?
So it now appears that Kotsay had support in Florida, San Diego and Oakland. Mmmm Very Strange Sherlock Holmes said Dr. Watson.

Pos Player Ag G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO BA OBP SLG SB CS GDP HBP SH SF IBB OPS+
---+-------------------+--+----+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+----+-----+-----+-----+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+----+
C Damian Miller 34 110 397 39 108 25 0 9 58 39 87 .272 .339 .403 0 1 19 2 2 2 0 92
1B *Scott Hatteberg 34 152 550 87 156 30 0 15 82 72 48 .284 .367 .420 0 0 10 5 3 8 5 104
2B Marco Scutaro 28 137 455 50 124 32 1 7 43 16 58 .273 .297 .393 0 0 9 0 5 1 1 77
3B *Eric Chavez 26 125 475 87 131 20 0 29 77 95 99 .276 .397 .501 6 3 21 3 0 4 10 132
SS Bobby Crosby 24 151 545 70 130 34 1 22 64 58 141 .239 .319 .426 7 3 20 9 5 6 0 91
LF Eric Byrnes 28 143 569 91 161 39 3 20 73 46 111 .283 .347 .467 17 1 11 12 0 5 0 109
CF *Mark Kotsay 28 148 606 78 190 37 3 15 63 55 70 .314 .370 .459 8 5 6 2 5 5 5 114
RF Jermaine Dye 30 137 532 87 141 29 4 23 80 49 128 .265 .329 .464 4 2 16 4 0 5 4 103
DH *Erubiel Durazo 30 142 511 80 164 35 1 22 88 56 104 .321 .396 .523 3 2 7 9 0 2 9 136

#Mark McLemore 39 77 250 29 62 14 0 2 21 41 33 .248 .355 .328 0 2 4 1 2 1 3 80
#Bobby Kielty 27 83 238 29 51 14 1 7 31 35 47 .214 .321 .370 1 0 5 3 1 1 0 79
#Adam Melhuse 32 69 214 23 55 11 0 11 31 16 47 .257 .309 .463 0 1 4 0 1 0 1 97
Eric Karros 36 40 103 8 20 6 0 2 11 7 16 .194 .243 .311 1 0 2 0 0 1 1 43
*Billy McMillon 32 52 92 10 17 4 0 3 11 8 22 .185 .255 .326 0 1 2 1 0 1 0 50
Esteban German 26 31 60 9 15 1 1 0 7 4 13 .250 .297 .300 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 56


As far as the comparison of fielding stats between Kotsay and Damon, not to be mean here but Who really cares. It’s so insignificant and extremely petty. Stadium dimensions, infield defense, outfield defense, night game, day game, flyball pitcher, groundball pitcher, game situations, team defense all play a part in contributing to stats. What’s next? How many times a game Kotsay farts in CF (10) compared to Damon’s (3)? Insignificant and Petty.

The main focal point of this issue started with, should the Yanks trade for Kotsay yes or no and give the A’s their asking price of Duncan and Hughes yes or no. Nothing more nothing less. Not debating how Kotsay and Damon are showing the same growth pattern or how Kotsay and Brock are. Now why would you even bother mentioning Brock if your intention was not to make a career comparison to Kotsay? Since you mentioned Brock that was your intention.


Again for the record, I have no problem if Kotsay becomes a Yank HOWEVER, I would not trade Duncan and/or Hughes to get him. He is a FA this year so if he wants to be a Yank let him sign with us. In the meantime since the Yanks are going nowhere fast they can sit back and give Melky Cabrera a chance in 1 month or let Bubba Cosby and his 177 avg run wild in center. Bubba’s fun to watch and he’s a fundamentally sound player. Plus he cost nothing in terms of talent to play. To update you, the Yanks have already decided what I and others have been saying all along that the price for Kotsay, Duncan and Hughes, is too high. They had arrived at the consensus that Kotsay was not worth it but will reconsider him in the offseason as a FA.

On this note, the Fat Lady is Howling and I'm outta here. Say Good Nite Gracie, Rood Rite Ravie. (fade to black)
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Postby davidmarver » Sun Jul 03, 2005 3:52 pm

OK, I erred on the Finley and I’ll admit that and own up to it. However boy you can spin. SPIN SPIN SPIN. Half the facts half the story. A lil bit of information is a very dangerous weapon in your hands. What half decent player didn’t you name from the Royals? What was wrong with the production of these players from those Padres teams: Bubba Trammell, D Jimenez, Ron Gant, Burroughs, Rondell White, X Nady, Mark Loretta, Ricky Henderson? They Hit, Stole, Scored and Droves runs in didn't they? Say, you even had Tony Gwynn and Langford off the bench. Bay and Greene in 2003. That't not too bad. How can you even mention Mark Quinn and consider him to be “support” but yet not even consider Rondell White adequate for Kotsay. Was Bubba Trammell that much of a stinker? Gee the stats for those teams don’t look so bad? You’ve really reached for the bottom of the barrel with these straws. Let’s clarify some stats. First of all, seeing all those names from the Royals one can’t help but to be surprised why they hadn’t won the AL Central given all that talent. But upon closer examination of all those players, they were Royals but at different times. Some were not yet established yet (Sweeney) or were still rookies (Beltran). And what’s not shown in the stats was that Damon had Carlos Febles batting around him in the 9th or 2 hole from 99-2000. As for the 2001-03 Padres, I see a lot of names in front of Kotsay and Bubba or Nady behind him. That’s not too bad wouldn’t you say? Let’s look at Bubba’s numbers with the Padres. Looks like he produced for you guys.


If you honestly consider D'Angelo Jimenez, Sean Burroughs, half a season of Rondell White, Ron Gant, a rookie Nady, and 40-year-old Ricky Henderson as protection you have to be kidding me. Talk about spin there. Bubba Trammell had one nice year, yes, but never approached the year Gaetti had in KC or some of the years Palmer and King had.

Here's the # of runs Damon's teams have scored:
1996 Royals - 746 (Damon's first full season)
1997 Royals - 747
1998 Royals - 714
1999 Royals - 856
2000 Royals - 879
2001 Athletics - 884
2002 Red Sox - 859
2003 Red Sox - 961
2004 Red Sox - 949
AVERAGE - 843.88 runs

Here's the # of runs Kotsay's teams have scored:
1998 Marlins - 667 (Kotsay's first full season)
1999 Marlins - 691
2000 Marlins - 731
2001 Padres - 789
2002 Padres - 662
2003 Padres - 678
2004 Athletics - 793
AVERAGE - 715.86 runs

Now please tell me how Kotsay has had as much support as Damon when the teams Damon have been on have AVERAGED more runs scored than the most runs scored for any of Kotsay's teams. You cannot make that argument.

If you go back to my prior post which started this specific thread, I intentionally excluded mentioning his stats with the A’s and Bosox in order to avoid another round of “petty statistics” spinning so I focused only on the Royals and continue to do so.


Why are you putting petty statistics in quotations when it's your own quote? If you want to compare only the Royals offenses to Kotsay's teams go for it. It really isn't comparable. The Royals' offenses dwarf the Padres and Marlins teams Kotsay was on.

As far as the comparison of fielding stats between Kotsay and Damon, not to be mean here but Who really cares. It’s so insignificant and extremely petty. Stadium dimensions, infield defense, outfield defense, night game, day game, flyball pitcher, groundball pitcher, game situations, team defense all play a part in contributing to stats. What’s next? How many times a game Kotsay farts in CF (10) compared to Damon’s (3)? Insignificant and Petty.


Who really cares? Every outfield assist he makes is practically a run saved, which is just as good as a run scored or produced. Not only does Kotsay throw runners out, but when the ball is hit to him, often times the third base coach will hold the runner because Kotsay is so good at throwing runners out. When was the last time a third base coach held up a runner when the ball was hit to Damon? C'mon now, that's very very very infrequent. Kotsay easily saves 15-20 more runs a season in the field in comparison to Damon...10 strictly through throwing out and at least another 5-10 through runners holding. This doesn't even bring fielding range into consideration yet. To completely disregard defense, as you have, is like farting (using your argument's basis) and not moving to avoid the smell.

The main focal point of this issue started with, should the Yanks trade for Kotsay yes or no and give the A’s their asking price of Duncan and Hughes yes or no. Nothing more nothing less.


No, the focal point was finding an alternative to acquiring Terrence Long. I'm telling you; Mark Kotsay is an above average centerfielder and would be a very good acquisition. The Yankees would be better with him...how do you know Duncan or Hughes (there's no way Kotsay will cost both...probably not even one of them) will even produce at Kotsay's level? Duncan's a .272 career minor league hitter. Kotsay's major league average is higher than that. Yes, he is young and shows promise, but isn't that one point you argued against Kotsay? That he's just a 'promising' player; nothing more than "junk".
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Postby dimaggio5 » Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:10 pm

davidmarver wrote:
OK, I erred on the Finley and I’ll admit that and own up to it. However boy you can spin. SPIN SPIN SPIN. Half the facts half the story. A lil bit of information is a very dangerous weapon in your hands. What half decent player didn’t you name from the Royals? What was wrong with the production of these players from those Padres teams: Bubba Trammell, D Jimenez, Ron Gant, Burroughs, Rondell White, X Nady, Mark Loretta, Ricky Henderson? They Hit, Stole, Scored and Droves runs in didn't they? Say, you even had Tony Gwynn and Langford off the bench. Bay and Greene in 2003. That't not too bad. How can you even mention Mark Quinn and consider him to be “support” but yet not even consider Rondell White adequate for Kotsay. Was Bubba Trammell that much of a stinker? Gee the stats for those teams don’t look so bad? You’ve really reached for the bottom of the barrel with these straws. Let’s clarify some stats. First of all, seeing all those names from the Royals one can’t help but to be surprised why they hadn’t won the AL Central given all that talent. But upon closer examination of all those players, they were Royals but at different times. Some were not yet established yet (Sweeney) or were still rookies (Beltran). And what’s not shown in the stats was that Damon had Carlos Febles batting around him in the 9th or 2 hole from 99-2000. As for the 2001-03 Padres, I see a lot of names in front of Kotsay and Bubba or Nady behind him. That’s not too bad wouldn’t you say? Let’s look at Bubba’s numbers with the Padres. Looks like he produced for you guys.


If you honestly consider D'Angelo Jimenez, Sean Burroughs, half a season of Rondell White, Ron Gant, a rookie Nady, and 40-year-old Ricky Henderson as protection you have to be kidding me. Talk about spin there. Bubba Trammell had one nice year, yes, but never approached the year Gaetti had in KC or some of the years Palmer and King had.

Here's the # of runs Damon's teams have scored:
1996 Royals - 746 (Damon's first full season)
1997 Royals - 747
1998 Royals - 714
1999 Royals - 856
2000 Royals - 879
2001 Athletics - 884
2002 Red Sox - 859
2003 Red Sox - 961
2004 Red Sox - 949
AVERAGE - 843.88 runs

Here's the # of runs Kotsay's teams have scored:
1998 Marlins - 667 (Kotsay's first full season)
1999 Marlins - 691
2000 Marlins - 731
2001 Padres - 789
2002 Padres - 662
2003 Padres - 678
2004 Athletics - 793
AVERAGE - 715.86 runs

Now please tell me how Kotsay has had as much support as Damon when the teams Damon have been on have AVERAGED more runs scored than the most runs scored for any of Kotsay's teams. You cannot make that argument.


AL- DH, NL - Pitcher ;-7

If you go back to my prior post which started this specific thread, I intentionally excluded mentioning his stats with the A’s and Bosox in order to avoid another round of “petty statistics” spinning so I focused only on the Royals and continue to do so.


Why are you putting petty statistics in quotations when it's your own quote? If you want to compare only the Royals offenses to Kotsay's teams go for it. It really isn't comparable. The Royals' offenses dwarf the Padres and Marlins teams Kotsay was on.

Your about as witty as my 3 month old niece after she's breast fed. Sharpen your reading comprehension skills and look back, I had already made two camparisons bright star you figure the other one out Bambi. ;-)

As far as the comparison of fielding stats between Kotsay and Damon, not to be mean here but Who really cares. It’s so insignificant and extremely petty. Stadium dimensions, infield defense, outfield defense, night game, day game, flyball pitcher, groundball pitcher, game situations, team defense all play a part in contributing to stats. What’s next? How many times a game Kotsay farts in CF (10) compared to Damon’s (3)? Insignificant and Petty.


Who really cares? Every outfield assist he makes is practically a run saved, which is just as good as a run scored or produced. Not only does Kotsay throw runners out, but when the ball is hit to him, often times the third base coach will hold the runner because Kotsay is so good at throwing runners out. When was the last time a third base coach held up a runner when the ball was hit to Damon? C'mon now, that's very very very infrequent. Kotsay easily saves 15-20 more runs a season in the field in comparison to Damon...10 strictly through throwing out and at least another 5-10 through runners holding. This doesn't even bring fielding range into consideration yet. To completely disregard defense, as you have, is like farting (using your argument's basis) and not moving to avoid the smell.

There's a larger picture if you haven't figured it out already. :-?


The main focal point of this issue started with, should the Yanks trade for Kotsay yes or no and give the A’s their asking price of Duncan and Hughes yes or no. Nothing more nothing less.


No, the focal point was finding an alternative to acquiring Terrence Long. I'm telling you; Mark Kotsay is an above average centerfielder and would be a very good acquisition. The Yankees would be better with him...how do you know Duncan or Hughes (there's no way Kotsay will cost both...probably not even one of them) will even produce at Kotsay's level? Duncan's a .272 career minor league hitter. Kotsay's major league average is higher than that. Yes, he is young and shows promise, but isn't that one point you argued against Kotsay? That he's just a 'promising' player; nothing more than "junk".


Only in your mind and world could you have arrived at these conclusions. The main focal point of THIS ISSUE. The issue between you and I that has extended this tired thread. Your honor I rest my case. I think the evidence shows that the plaintiff is an incompetent and mental BooB. Case dismissed. This now concludes our programing. (music...fade to black) Cut.
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Postby davidmarver » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:01 am

dimaggio5 wrote:
davidmarver wrote:
OK, I erred on the Finley and I’ll admit that and own up to it. However boy you can spin. SPIN SPIN SPIN. Half the facts half the story. A lil bit of information is a very dangerous weapon in your hands. What half decent player didn’t you name from the Royals? What was wrong with the production of these players from those Padres teams: Bubba Trammell, D Jimenez, Ron Gant, Burroughs, Rondell White, X Nady, Mark Loretta, Ricky Henderson? They Hit, Stole, Scored and Droves runs in didn't they? Say, you even had Tony Gwynn and Langford off the bench. Bay and Greene in 2003. That't not too bad. How can you even mention Mark Quinn and consider him to be “support” but yet not even consider Rondell White adequate for Kotsay. Was Bubba Trammell that much of a stinker? Gee the stats for those teams don’t look so bad? You’ve really reached for the bottom of the barrel with these straws. Let’s clarify some stats. First of all, seeing all those names from the Royals one can’t help but to be surprised why they hadn’t won the AL Central given all that talent. But upon closer examination of all those players, they were Royals but at different times. Some were not yet established yet (Sweeney) or were still rookies (Beltran). And what’s not shown in the stats was that Damon had Carlos Febles batting around him in the 9th or 2 hole from 99-2000. As for the 2001-03 Padres, I see a lot of names in front of Kotsay and Bubba or Nady behind him. That’s not too bad wouldn’t you say? Let’s look at Bubba’s numbers with the Padres. Looks like he produced for you guys.


If you honestly consider D'Angelo Jimenez, Sean Burroughs, half a season of Rondell White, Ron Gant, a rookie Nady, and 40-year-old Ricky Henderson as protection you have to be kidding me. Talk about spin there. Bubba Trammell had one nice year, yes, but never approached the year Gaetti had in KC or some of the years Palmer and King had.

Here's the # of runs Damon's teams have scored:
1996 Royals - 746 (Damon's first full season)
1997 Royals - 747
1998 Royals - 714
1999 Royals - 856
2000 Royals - 879
2001 Athletics - 884
2002 Red Sox - 859
2003 Red Sox - 961
2004 Red Sox - 949
AVERAGE - 843.88 runs

Here's the # of runs Kotsay's teams have scored:
1998 Marlins - 667 (Kotsay's first full season)
1999 Marlins - 691
2000 Marlins - 731
2001 Padres - 789
2002 Padres - 662
2003 Padres - 678
2004 Athletics - 793
AVERAGE - 715.86 runs

Now please tell me how Kotsay has had as much support as Damon when the teams Damon have been on have AVERAGED more runs scored than the most runs scored for any of Kotsay's teams. You cannot make that argument.

AL- DH, NL - Pitcher ;-7

That is your entire rebuttal...that the NL has a pitcher while the AL has a DH? Wouldn't that mean Damon would have better people batting in front of him (not a pitcher) and behind him? You just proved my point.

If you go back to my prior post which started this specific thread, I intentionally excluded mentioning his stats with the A’s and Bosox in order to avoid another round of “petty statistics” spinning so I focused only on the Royals and continue to do so.


Why are you putting petty statistics in quotations when it's your own quote? If you want to compare only the Royals offenses to Kotsay's teams go for it. It really isn't comparable. The Royals' offenses dwarf the Padres and Marlins teams Kotsay was on.


Your about as witty as my 3 month old niece after she's breast fed. Sharpen your reading comprehension skills and look back, I had already made two camparisons bright star you figure the other one out Bambi. ;-)

So you want me to sharpen my reading comprehension? You spelled comparisons incorrectly and the sentence(s) grammatical structure is terrible. Where was the baseball in that argument?

As far as the comparison of fielding stats between Kotsay and Damon, not to be mean here but Who really cares. It’s so insignificant and extremely petty. Stadium dimensions, infield defense, outfield defense, night game, day game, flyball pitcher, groundball pitcher, game situations, team defense all play a part in contributing to stats. What’s next? How many times a game Kotsay farts in CF (10) compared to Damon’s (3)? Insignificant and Petty.


Who really cares? Every outfield assist he makes is practically a run saved, which is just as good as a run scored or produced. Not only does Kotsay throw runners out, but when the ball is hit to him, often times the third base coach will hold the runner because Kotsay is so good at throwing runners out. When was the last time a third base coach held up a runner when the ball was hit to Damon? C'mon now, that's very very very infrequent. Kotsay easily saves 15-20 more runs a season in the field in comparison to Damon...10 strictly through throwing out and at least another 5-10 through runners holding. This doesn't even bring fielding range into consideration yet. To completely disregard defense, as you have, is like farting (using your argument's basis) and not moving to avoid the smell.


There's a larger picture if you haven't figured it out already. :-?

Yes and fielding is HALF of it. Half of baseball is spent on offense, half on defense. While Kotsay makes up 1/9th of the offense, it's more than likely he makes up more than 1/9th of the defense seeing as he plays centerfield. It's possible that I am underestimating how important defense is.

The main focal point of this issue started with, should the Yanks trade for Kotsay yes or no and give the A’s their asking price of Duncan and Hughes yes or no. Nothing more nothing less.


No, the focal point was finding an alternative to acquiring Terrence Long. I'm telling you; Mark Kotsay is an above average centerfielder and would be a very good acquisition. The Yankees would be better with him...how do you know Duncan or Hughes (there's no way Kotsay will cost both...probably not even one of them) will even produce at Kotsay's level? Duncan's a .272 career minor league hitter. Kotsay's major league average is higher than that. Yes, he is young and shows promise, but isn't that one point you argued against Kotsay? That he's just a 'promising' player; nothing more than "junk".


Only in your mind and world could you have arrived at these conclusions. The main focal point of THIS ISSUE. The issue between you and I that has extended this tired thread. Your honor I rest my case. I think the evidence shows that the plaintiff is an incompetent and mental BooB. Case dismissed. This now concludes our programing. (music...fade to black) Cut.

And you want me to sharpen my reading comprehension?
The main focal point of THIS ISSUE.

That is not a sentence.
The issue between you and I that has extended this tired thread.

That is not a sentence; it is a restatement of the previous 'sentence'.

How did you become a lawyer and what evidence have you presented? I am baffled :-? .

Please try to stay on topic here...why would Kotsay not be a good fit on the Yankees? Why is Johnny Damon such a better player? Please try to present to me why without calling me a "BooB" or re-telling the entire story of the 1996 and 1998 Yankees because, frankly, I have better things to do than argue with you if you aren't going to retain anything I've written.
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Postby AT » Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:07 am

Mark Kotsay play some good baseball.

P.S. 1998.
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