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Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:48 pm

That sounds good, they are going to need a first baseman for the future anyway.

I had my eye on Nick Johnson but if Duncan is as good as he's made out to be, he could fit nicely. I don't think the Yankees need to make a move now, especially since Kotsay will be available in the offseason, as well as others. Hopefully they realize this and don't overspend for him now, because they need much more than that if they expect to go anywhere this season.
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Postby davidmarver » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:17 am

Before I commence I'd like to let you know that there's a nice little invention called the comma.

Whoa bro your going way off base now and where should I begin.....I had no problem with Curtis and how on earth did you infer that? Actaully you thought my comparison of Curtis to Kotsay was laughable so I guess I can infer that you think Kotsay is superior to Curtis. And the Yankees did NOT WIN becuase of Chad Curtis they won becuae the WHOLE team played fundamental baseball for the bettterment of the team which all started with Boggs then Raines then Jeter tehn Oniell then Jeter then Tino then Brosius. The pitching was underateda and solid with Key, Petite and Cone. The bullpen was automatic and they had Rivera the most important piece of the Yankee team squash any rally mounting and he also bridged the 8th and 9th innings to ensure a yankees win. The Yanks didn;t win becuase of Curtis or that one player who did the small things. It was a total cummulative team effort begiinnig with Boggs, Jeter and Oniell working the pitchers for 20-30 pithces in the first and then the second and then the third. It was solid pitching efforts like Petite against Smoltz who kept the game close and outpithing Smoltz even though he was out skilled. Or a less than 100% Jimmey Key again pitching to keep the game close when he was being outpitched by MAddux so that the team had a chance to get into the bullpen. Then when things really got into trouble Mariano came in to put out the rally. This was why the Yankees won not becuase they had a spark plug and this is what the papers mean when they say no one does the little things not your definition or interpretation of what you might see on occasion or read. The Yankees are now a team of hackers and impatient hitters which all began with Giambi and intensified after Oniell and Tino left the Yanks. Wade Biggs and Raines use to set the tone and their patience was infective and the whole team followed their suit. They weren;t sparkplugs and weren;t always the most dynamic fielders but what they had were superior batting sklills to go with their inner fortitude and desire to win. They both had good batting eyes and were really excellent hitters not marginal hitters. Jeter was the sparkplug. As far as defense they had a sold middle with Jeter Knoblauch, Duncan and a young Bernie Williams plus Giradi and then Posada as catchers. A solid Middle of the field made it easy to carry a less then average outfielder like Strawberry and a limited range Boggs. But then the Yanks were fortunate not to be too deficient defensively at the corner postions with Oniell and Tino and then Brosius came.

Cool story.

Back to now, Why would Kotsay cost 2 prospects? The reports are that the A's asked for Hughes and Duncan for Kotsay and Byrnes and since Byrnes is a total non factor the trade comes down to Duncan and Hughes

If Kotsay eventually becomes a Yank I won’t have an issue with it and never said that I would. What I stated was I wouldn’t trade high end or solid high ceiling prospects for him and I wouldn’t expect him to make a huge difference in the Yankee lineup. What I also said was he doesn’t have enough stand out skills to make a impact and that;s what the Yanks need.

Kotsay would not cost two prospects. And if what you want is a great 'impact' player, then you would part with plenty of prospects. You can't have it both ways. You either take Kotsay, an improvement, for a younger player or pay the farm for another high-end talent...something the Yankees already have plenty of.

The market is very weak this year and full of junk so why should the Yanks force a trade and trade away some very solid prospects with high potentials for junk?

Don't worry; Kotsay is junk ;-7 . That explains why he's started nearly every day of every year when healthy. Or wait...maybe there is more to a baseball player than slugging statistics. No, that couldn't be ;-7 .

Well there are a whole lot of things wrong with the Yanks that no one player can fix and especially not a Kotsay. The problem is hitting, infield defense, CF, age, weak bullpen and questionable starting pitching so unless Kotsay can do a lil of everything I can’t see how he’ll “stabilize”the Yanks.

No single player can bring everything you mentioned. Kotsay, however, brings two to the Yankees. He's a younger CF than the current Yankee CF's, is superior defensively and is an improvement offensively from your current CF's.

If the Yanks need a sparkplug and a sound player we already have one with Bubba Crosby at AAA and if need another I’m sure we can reach down into another teams AAA team and trade some marginal prospect to get him.

Yep, Bubba Crosby is the answer. His .143 career average, .432 OPS, and 3/20 BB/K ratio is very impressive ;-7 . Look, the little things are exactly what helps an offense perform in a cold spell. The hackers not doing very well lately? Just get a guy on for Kotsay and I can nearly guarantee he'll be moved up. Those little things are what make .500 teams .550 teams...they help alleviate some of the dry spells and that's really all you can ask for out of a guy like Kotsay. No, he won't wow you or go deep often, but he'll keep the offense rolling however he can.

Zito was the weakest of the Oakland big 3 but he’s a lefty so he’s still an A’s.

Zito, by no stretch of the imagination, was the weakest. Mulder wasn't healthy, and neither him nor Hudson has anything on their mantle, unlike Zito.

The same was for Hernandez, he needed Hernandez but could not retain him or found his salaray ineffiecient with his current roster at that time against his limited cap.

Hernandez's salary was lower than Kotsay's. He wanted to keep Hernandez (and resign...he's been on record as saying that); it was dumping Long's salary, while bringing in a solid CF that interested Beane.

Owens another gamer but that was all he was a gamer with no stick but at the time of the trade he had some “potential” In other words he really sucked.

Owens hit .293 the year before the Padres traded him and had stolen 62 bases in the past two seasons. Yep, he sucked ;-7 .

The same for the Hernandez trade the trade made sense to do for both sides at the time. Kotsay was still viewed as a player yet to reach his potential and these were the types of palyers Beane wanted, undervalued assets. But can you say that Kotsay has reached that potential as an A’s. Nope

If Kotsay still hasn't reached "that potential", then wouldn't he still be 'undervalued'?

Now don’t tell me that you seriously knew Klesko would return to adequate form this year without you speaking as a faithful and hopeful Padre or Klesko fan. When more than half the scouts in the MLB said he was done, you mean to say that you the minority and pro wannabe knew a 34 year old player with a history of injuries and back problems would be respectable this year.

Show me where a scout said Klesko was done. The Padres were very optimistic with Klesko going into the offseason and with reason. His shoulder was a year-removed from the surgery and he was now able to lift to gain strength again. His numbers last year were actually very good, minus the homeruns. He hit around .300 with a .399 OBP. His skills were still there, it was the lack of power that made the illusion that he wasn't good anymore.

Your Padres are a very good team with excellent pitching but your position players current and former aren’t all that.

Mark Loretta, Phil Nevin, Ramon Hernandez, Ryan Klesko, Brian Giles, Robert Fick. All current Padres position players who have gone to an all-star game in the past five years. Just wanted to let you know that Gary Sheffield, one of the Yankees best hitters, was a Padre.

Comparing Damon to Kotsay????? Know I’m laughing my ass off. Sorry buddy you place too much value on your Padre players and Kotsay.

Look at the numbers. Runs and RBI are a result of situation, not personal skill. But power-wise, OPS-wise, avg-wise, and bb/k-wise, Kotsay and Damon are extremely similar. Speed goes to Damon, defense to Kotsay. Pretty darn equal to me.

For your amusement:
Kotsay's numbers at age 28: .314 avg, .370 OBP, .459 SLG, 15 HR, .8 BB/K ratio
Damon's numbers at age 28: .286 avg, .356 OBP, .443 SLG, 14 HR, .9 BB/K ratio

Kotsay's numbers (on-pace) at age 29: .276 avg, .332 OBP, .391 SLG, 10.25 HR, 1.0 BB/K Ratio
Damon's numbers at age 29: .273 avg, .345 OBP, .405 SLG, 12 HR, .9 BB/K Ratio.

We know Damon steals more bases, but Kotsay plays better defense. Trust me, they are very similar players (3 times Damon shows up as the most similar player to Mark Kotsay http://www.baseball-reference.com .) In fact, the seventh most similar player to Kotsay through age 28 is Lou Brock. Yep, Kotsay's just "junk" ;-7.
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Postby looptid » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:02 am

What about Jacque Jones? He is a free agent next year, is currently making $5 million, and won't be in the Twins price range next season. Our infield is absolutely horrible, and with the exception of Morneau and Mauer, any of the other three positions could be easily improved by a trade. Jones came up through the minors as a center fielder, played the majority of his games there as a rookie in 1999 but was pushed to the corners once Hunter arrived. The Twins know that Jones won't be a Twin come 2006, already have his replacement in Lew Ford, and could desperately use major league help at 2B, SS, or 3B, or minor league help at 2B or 3B (with Jason Bartlett being a servicable SS prospect).

whoson1st0 wrote:As for intangibles, they need to get rid of whatever cancers are in the clubhouse. A large group of aging primadonas can only go so far.

Like in '77 and '78 when everyone on the entire Yankees roster hated Reggie Jackson? Lagre groups of primadonas don't have any tougher a time playing winning baseball than tight-knit, chummy groups. Chemsitry isn't the Yankees problem. It's growing old without developing any players from within their system (unlike in the past with Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada, ect.) and signing average players to unmovable contracts (just because you give Pavano and Wright $61 million, doesn't mean you're getting $61 million worth of pitching). Psychologists have stated that work groups that don't get along are more stable. Members only socialize and interact in cliques, and and success, failure, and disagreement dosen't resinate through the group like they do when everyone is buddy-buddy. There is no proof that a cohesive or dysfunctional club house is superior to the other, and both kinds of teams have done well.

davidmarver wrote:I applaud you for posting Kotsay's statistics. How many 'moved runners over' did he have?

There isn't a significant correlation between my favorite oxymoron and runs scored: productive outs. It's up there wtih military intelligence, jumbo shrimp, and Microsoft Works.

davidmarver wrote:I finally have a good player to compare Kotsay to: Johnny Damon with less speed but a much better arm, a quieter mouth, and less age. But you probably wanted Damon when those rumors arose, didn't you?

2005 VORP
Damon - 27.8
Kotsay - 9.6

Those guys are comperable like dog food and steak. Kostasy hasn't been worth an extra 18 runs in the field this season.

davidmarver wrote:First off, what exactly is so terrible with Chad Curtis? Didn't the Yankees win when they had him?

I'm with dimaggio5. This is like the euphoric Twins fans that take offense when someone criticizes a Jaun Castro, Luis Rivas, or Henry Blanco, and retort that "they've won three division titles, haven't they?" Being on a winning team doesn't mean a player is responsible for a team's success, and the Yankees would have been just fine without Chad Curtis.

dimaggio5 wrote:Read again I never said every player in the majors was well schooled and can do the little things I said only the Twins are well schooled and don’t tell me your going to debate that point with me too.

I'd trade all the little things in the world for one guy that would hit 30 homeruns in a season (no one has since '87). The reason for the Twins success is that their pitching has continued to improve along with the Central. And are the Twins really great at the little things? It's become pretty cliche, and the quotes from the Baseball Tonight crew and opposing managers back it up, but how many of you bother to watch Twins games? They make just as many stupid mistakes as anyone else, and that little-things fetish leads to stuff like batting Jaun Castro second last night (which hasn't been all that irregular this season). Never mind his career OPS is .604, he can sacrifice bunt and hit behind runners.
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Postby dimaggio5 » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:23 am

davidmarver wrote:Before I commence I'd like to let you know that there's a nice little invention called the comma.

Whoa bro your going way off base now and where should I begin.....I had no problem with Curtis and how on earth did you infer that? Actaully you thought my comparison of Curtis to Kotsay was laughable so I guess I can infer that you think Kotsay is superior to Curtis. And the Yankees did NOT WIN becuase of Chad Curtis they won becuae the WHOLE team played fundamental baseball for the bettterment of the team which all started with Boggs then Raines then Jeter tehn Oniell then Jeter then Tino then Brosius. The pitching was underateda and solid with Key, Petite and Cone. The bullpen was automatic and they had Rivera the most important piece of the Yankee team squash any rally mounting and he also bridged the 8th and 9th innings to ensure a yankees win. The Yanks didn;t win becuase of Curtis or that one player who did the small things. It was a total cummulative team effort begiinnig with Boggs, Jeter and Oniell working the pitchers for 20-30 pithces in the first and then the second and then the third. It was solid pitching efforts like Petite against Smoltz who kept the game close and outpithing Smoltz even though he was out skilled. Or a less than 100% Jimmey Key again pitching to keep the game close when he was being outpitched by MAddux so that the team had a chance to get into the bullpen. Then when things really got into trouble Mariano came in to put out the rally. This was why the Yankees won not becuase they had a spark plug and this is what the papers mean when they say no one does the little things not your definition or interpretation of what you might see on occasion or read. The Yankees are now a team of hackers and impatient hitters which all began with Giambi and intensified after Oniell and Tino left the Yanks. Wade Biggs and Raines use to set the tone and their patience was infective and the whole team followed their suit. They weren;t sparkplugs and weren;t always the most dynamic fielders but what they had were superior batting sklills to go with their inner fortitude and desire to win. They both had good batting eyes and were really excellent hitters not marginal hitters. Jeter was the sparkplug. As far as defense they had a sold middle with Jeter Knoblauch, Duncan and a young Bernie Williams plus Giradi and then Posada as catchers. A solid Middle of the field made it easy to carry a less then average outfielder like Strawberry and a limited range Boggs. But then the Yanks were fortunate not to be too deficient defensively at the corner postions with Oniell and Tino and then Brosius came.

Cool story.

Back to now, Why would Kotsay cost 2 prospects? The reports are that the A's asked for Hughes and Duncan for Kotsay and Byrnes and since Byrnes is a total non factor the trade comes down to Duncan and Hughes

If Kotsay eventually becomes a Yank I won’t have an issue with it and never said that I would. What I stated was I wouldn’t trade high end or solid high ceiling prospects for him and I wouldn’t expect him to make a huge difference in the Yankee lineup. What I also said was he doesn’t have enough stand out skills to make a impact and that;s what the Yanks need.

Kotsay would not cost two prospects. And if what you want is a great 'impact' player, then you would part with plenty of prospects. You can't have it both ways. You either take Kotsay, an improvement, for a younger player or pay the farm for another high-end talent...something the Yankees already have plenty of.

The market is very weak this year and full of junk so why should the Yanks force a trade and trade away some very solid prospects with high potentials for junk?

Don't worry; Kotsay is junk ;-7 . That explains why he's started nearly every day of every year when healthy. Or wait...maybe there is more to a baseball player than slugging statistics. No, that couldn't be ;-7 .

Well there are a whole lot of things wrong with the Yanks that no one player can fix and especially not a Kotsay. The problem is hitting, infield defense, CF, age, weak bullpen and questionable starting pitching so unless Kotsay can do a lil of everything I can’t see how he’ll “stabilize”the Yanks.

No single player can bring everything you mentioned. Kotsay, however, brings two to the Yankees. He's a younger CF than the current Yankee CF's, is superior defensively and is an improvement offensively from your current CF's.

If the Yanks need a sparkplug and a sound player we already have one with Bubba Crosby at AAA and if need another I’m sure we can reach down into another teams AAA team and trade some marginal prospect to get him.

Yep, Bubba Crosby is the answer. His .143 career average, .432 OPS, and 3/20 BB/K ratio is very impressive ;-7 . Look, the little things are exactly what helps an offense perform in a cold spell. The hackers not doing very well lately? Just get a guy on for Kotsay and I can nearly guarantee he'll be moved up. Those little things are what make .500 teams .550 teams...they help alleviate some of the dry spells and that's really all you can ask for out of a guy like Kotsay. No, he won't wow you or go deep often, but he'll keep the offense rolling however he can.

Zito was the weakest of the Oakland big 3 but he’s a lefty so he’s still an A’s.

Zito, by no stretch of the imagination, was the weakest. Mulder wasn't healthy, and neither him nor Hudson has anything on their mantle, unlike Zito.

The same was for Hernandez, he needed Hernandez but could not retain him or found his salaray ineffiecient with his current roster at that time against his limited cap.

Hernandez's salary was lower than Kotsay's. He wanted to keep Hernandez (and resign...he's been on record as saying that); it was dumping Long's salary, while bringing in a solid CF that interested Beane.

Owens another gamer but that was all he was a gamer with no stick but at the time of the trade he had some “potential” In other words he really sucked.

Owens hit .293 the year before the Padres traded him and had stolen 62 bases in the past two seasons. Yep, he sucked ;-7 .

The same for the Hernandez trade the trade made sense to do for both sides at the time. Kotsay was still viewed as a player yet to reach his potential and these were the types of palyers Beane wanted, undervalued assets. But can you say that Kotsay has reached that potential as an A’s. Nope

If Kotsay still hasn't reached "that potential", then wouldn't he still be 'undervalued'?

Now don’t tell me that you seriously knew Klesko would return to adequate form this year without you speaking as a faithful and hopeful Padre or Klesko fan. When more than half the scouts in the MLB said he was done, you mean to say that you the minority and pro wannabe knew a 34 year old player with a history of injuries and back problems would be respectable this year.

Show me where a scout said Klesko was done. The Padres were very optimistic with Klesko going into the offseason and with reason. His shoulder was a year-removed from the surgery and he was now able to lift to gain strength again. His numbers last year were actually very good, minus the homeruns. He hit around .300 with a .399 OBP. His skills were still there, it was the lack of power that made the illusion that he wasn't good anymore.

Your Padres are a very good team with excellent pitching but your position players current and former aren’t all that.

Mark Loretta, Phil Nevin, Ramon Hernandez, Ryan Klesko, Brian Giles, Robert Fick. All current Padres position players who have gone to an all-star game in the past five years. Just wanted to let you know that Gary Sheffield, one of the Yankees best hitters, was a Padre.

Comparing Damon to Kotsay????? Know I’m laughing my ass off. Sorry buddy you place too much value on your Padre players and Kotsay.

Look at the numbers. Runs and RBI are a result of situation, not personal skill. But power-wise, OPS-wise, avg-wise, and bb/k-wise, Kotsay and Damon are extremely similar. Speed goes to Damon, defense to Kotsay. Pretty darn equal to me.

For your amusement:
Kotsay's numbers at age 28: .314 avg, .370 OBP, .459 SLG, 15 HR, .8 BB/K ratio
Damon's numbers at age 28: .286 avg, .356 OBP, .443 SLG, 14 HR, .9 BB/K ratio

Kotsay's numbers (on-pace) at age 29: .276 avg, .332 OBP, .391 SLG, 10.25 HR, 1.0 BB/K Ratio
Damon's numbers at age 29: .273 avg, .345 OBP, .405 SLG, 12 HR, .9 BB/K Ratio.

We know Damon steals more bases, but Kotsay plays better defense. Trust me, they are very similar players (3 times Damon shows up as the most similar player to Mark Kotsay http://www.baseball-reference.com .) In fact, the seventh most similar player to Kotsay through age 28 is Lou Brock. Yep, Kotsay's just "junk" ;-7.



Pal I've come to the conclusion your on fumes.

Anyone who thinks Kotsay is in the same league as Damon listens and dances to their own beat and in their own corner of the room. Great dancer when the room is empty. Now Kotsay is equivalent to Lou Brock.

There's baseball talk baseball debate and then there's self righteous hypocracy.

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Postby dimaggio5 » Sat Jul 02, 2005 11:45 am

looptid wrote:What about Jacque Jones? He is a free agent next year, is currently making $5 million, and won't be in the Twins price range next season. Our infield is absolutely horrible, and with the exception of Morneau and Mauer, any of the other three positions could be easily improved by a trade. Jones came up through the minors as a center fielder, played the majority of his games there as a rookie in 1999 but was pushed to the corners once Hunter arrived. The Twins know that Jones won't be a Twin come 2006, already have his replacement in Lew Ford, and could desperately use major league help at 2B, SS, or 3B, or minor league help at 2B or 3B (with Jason Bartlett being a servicable SS prospect).

whoson1st0 wrote:As for intangibles, they need to get rid of whatever cancers are in the clubhouse. A large group of aging primadonas can only go so far.

Like in '77 and '78 when everyone on the entire Yankees roster hated Reggie Jackson? Lagre groups of primadonas don't have any tougher a time playing winning baseball than tight-knit, chummy groups. Chemsitry isn't the Yankees problem. It's growing old without developing any players from within their system (unlike in the past with Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte, Posada, ect.) and signing average players to unmovable contracts (just because you give Pavano and Wright $61 million, doesn't mean you're getting $61 million worth of pitching). Psychologists have stated that work groups that don't get along are more stable. Members only socialize and interact in cliques, and and success, failure, and disagreement dosen't resinate through the group like they do when everyone is buddy-buddy. There is no proof that a cohesive or dysfunctional club house is superior to the other, and both kinds of teams have done well.

davidmarver wrote:I applaud you for posting Kotsay's statistics. How many 'moved runners over' did he have?

There isn't a significant correlation between my favorite oxymoron and runs scored: productive outs. It's up there wtih military intelligence, jumbo shrimp, and Microsoft Works.

davidmarver wrote:I finally have a good player to compare Kotsay to: Johnny Damon with less speed but a much better arm, a quieter mouth, and less age. But you probably wanted Damon when those rumors arose, didn't you?

2005 VORP
Damon - 27.8
Kotsay - 9.6

Those guys are comperable like dog food and steak. Kostasy hasn't been worth an extra 18 runs in the field this season.

davidmarver wrote:First off, what exactly is so terrible with Chad Curtis? Didn't the Yankees win when they had him?

I'm with dimaggio5. This is like the euphoric Twins fans that take offense when someone criticizes a Jaun Castro, Luis Rivas, or Henry Blanco, and retort that "they've won three division titles, haven't they?" Being on a winning team doesn't mean a player is responsible for a team's success, and the Yankees would have been just fine without Chad Curtis.

dimaggio5 wrote:Read again I never said every player in the majors was well schooled and can do the little things I said only the Twins are well schooled and don’t tell me your going to debate that point with me too.

I'd trade all the little things in the world for one guy that would hit 30 homeruns in a season (no one has since '87). The reason for the Twins success is that their pitching has continued to improve along with the Central. And are the Twins really great at the little things? It's become pretty cliche, and the quotes from the Baseball Tonight crew and opposing managers back it up, but how many of you bother to watch Twins games? They make just as many stupid mistakes as anyone else, and that little-things fetish leads to stuff like batting Jaun Castro second last night (which hasn't been all that irregular this season). Never mind his career OPS is .604, he can sacrifice bunt and hit behind runners.


I like Jacque Jones I wouldn;t mind having him on the Yanks...as far as the 30 HR player that shouldn;t be too far away from happening. Morneau and Mauer are going to be amongst the best players in the majors one day.
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Postby davidmarver » Sat Jul 02, 2005 5:25 pm

Pal I've come to the conclusion your on fumes.

Anyone who thinks Kotsay is in the same league as Damon listens and dances to their own beat and in their own corner of the room. Great dancer when the room is empty. Now Kotsay is equivalent to Lou Brock.

There's baseball talk baseball debate and then there's self righteous hypocracy.

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You're completely ignoring the numbers. If you even glanced at the numbers I showed you between Damon and Kotsay, you'd see how similar they are.

And I never said Kotsay was Lou Brock... http://www.baseball-reference.com has Brock as the seventh most similar player to Kotsay through age 28.

And please, whoever it was, don't use VORP to show who's better when one player plays for the Red Sox and the other for the Athletics. That's like saying a pitcher that plays in Petco is better than a pitcher that plays in Coors Field by using ERA. It just doesn't make sense.
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Postby looptid » Sat Jul 02, 2005 7:57 pm

davidmarver wrote:And please, whoever it was, don't use VORP to show who's better when one player plays for the Red Sox and the other for the Athletics. That's like saying a pitcher that plays in Petco is better than a pitcher that plays in Coors Field by using ERA. It just doesn't make sense.

VORP is park adjusted, league adjusted, and position adjusted.
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Postby uucrook3d » Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:11 pm

dimaggio i think you need to recognize that marver isnt comparing damon now to kotsay now. he is comparing a 28 year old damon to kotsay now. there is a huge difference it seems like you are ignoring.
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Postby davidmarver » Sat Jul 02, 2005 9:48 pm

looptid wrote:
davidmarver wrote:And please, whoever it was, don't use VORP to show who's better when one player plays for the Red Sox and the other for the Athletics. That's like saying a pitcher that plays in Petco is better than a pitcher that plays in Coors Field by using ERA. It just doesn't make sense.

VORP is park adjusted, league adjusted, and position adjusted.

It's not Red Sox lineup and Athletics lineup adjusted, though.
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Postby looptid » Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:26 pm

Yes, it is. Runs and RBIs aren't factored in. Anything else?
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