Dear Brian Cashman, get Terrence Long. - Fantasy Baseball Cafe 2014 Fantasy Baseball Cafe
100% Deposit Bonus for Cafe Members!

Return to New York Yankees

Dear Brian Cashman, get Terrence Long.

Moderator: Baseball Moderators

Postby MMoNeY24 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:17 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:I hate to lose Duncan, but with A-Rod locked up at 3B, and Oakland demanding him, I wonder if it's so bad that we give him up. He could be good, but alot of the buzz around him could be Yankee hype. If we could give him up, with someone else, (not Hughes) maybe Encarnacion, if we get him, then I'd be very tempted to do it.


Duncan's pretty good but I think he's mostly surrounded by hype also. I'm tempted to keep Hughes and try a deal with Duncan as long as A-Rod keeps playing. It's tough to tell what would happen with Kotsay if he comes here (as far as a contract extension goes), that's why it's tough to deal prospects, but the A's won't let anyone go cheap.

Encarnacion's been tearing it up of late, probably hears of all these rumors and may be showcasing a little. If the Yankees get him and he starts playing well, you'll start to wonder what they'll do with him - sell him higher or keep him for what he's worth.
MMoNeY24
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe RankerGraphics ExpertWeb SupporterSweet 16 SurvivorLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 6696
(Past Year: 1)
Joined: 23 May 2004
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby dimaggio5 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:44 am

Sorry still not sold on Kotsay watched him when he was in Fla and a lil in SD. He had his lil moments of greatness but I still don;t see him as being a long term solution for the Yanks. Personally I see his as a stop gap and yes he may be a spark plug but spark plugs are not hard to come by. The Yanks need a player with heart and pop. A player who has the potential to be an Edmonds or Oniell not another Chad Curtis or David Dellucci. However, if he's worth a shot I still say sign him as a FA and keep the prospects. Yankee fans keep in mind that the Yanks have already discussed moving Duncan to 1b or the OF becasue of Arod. I think 1b is probaly the more likely choice. The kid has a stick and he would be cheap which is what the Yanks really need to do for a while until they can get rid of some of the junk we have at 1B. Plus if the A's are singling out Duncan it gives more credence to his potential prowness as a player. The Yankees probably should keep him for themselves.

Shef for Burnett and Ency is a tuff one. IF Yanks are throwing it in yes I love the deal but if we are still going to contend that deal will not work as out offense will get obviously weaker without Shef. I'd trade for Ency ala carte if the price was right but again I really dont; think parting with Cano, Wang, Duncan or Hughes is a fair price.

In all of these trade talks with the Yanks I hope to God Gene Micheal is at the helm and not Cashman. Micheal is the only Yankee personal whose evaluation I trust whole heartedly. If Cashman is wheeling and dealing I'm prepared for the Yankees to get screwed again by a smarter GM.
Image

It's not just the Tradition.....its Aura and Mystique
dimaggio5
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 472
Joined: 5 Feb 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Monument Park, Yankee Stadium

Postby bigh0rt » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:01 am

dimaggio5 wrote:Sorry still not sold on Kotsay watched him when he was in Fla and a lil in SD. He had his lil moments of greatness but I still don;t see him as being a long term solution for the Yanks. Personally I see his as a stop gap and yes he may be a spark plug but spark plugs are not hard to come by. The Yanks need a player with heart and pop. A player who has the potential to be an Edmonds or Oniell not another Chad Curtis or David Dellucci. However, if he's worth a shot I still say sign him as a FA and keep the prospects. Yankee fans keep in mind that the Yanks have already discussed moving Duncan to 1b or the OF becasue of Arod. I think 1b is probaly the more likely choice. The kid has a stick and he would be cheap which is what the Yanks really need to do for a while until they can get rid of some of the junk we have at 1B. Plus if the A's are singling out Duncan it gives more credence to his potential prowness as a player. The Yankees probably should keep him for themselves.


Wow, I was going to say the exact same thing about Kotsay (there was talk in March/April of the Mets trading Cammy to the A's for him, and I wasn't a fan then either), but I figured you'd all just call me a Yankee hater (which I'm not). :-b

Glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Kotsay isn't all he's talked up to be.
Image
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24815
(Past Year: 360)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Postby davidmarver » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:13 am

If you don't think Kotsay's a gamer you haven't watched him play or you don't appreciate the little things in baseball. Kotsay is more than a stopgap (he's only 29) and to compare him to Chad Curtis is laughable. In Kotsay's worst season he hit .266. Curtis is a CAREER .264 hitter. Kotsay is actually hitting below his career norms (minus RBI) right now so I don't see how his stock would be so high.
Image
davidmarver
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 ChampionLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 6154
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 5.5 Hole

Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:35 am

davidmarver wrote:If you don't think Kotsay's a gamer you haven't watched him play or you don't appreciate the little things in baseball. Kotsay is more than a stopgap (he's only 29) and to compare him to Chad Curtis is laughable. In Kotsay's worst season he hit .266. Curtis is a CAREER .264 hitter. Kotsay is actually hitting below his career norms (minus RBI) right now so I don't see how his stock would be so high.


I agree. I haven't watched him a whole lot, but I've seen him enough and heard enough about him to really like the way he plays.

It's easy to say the Yankees need the next Paul O'Neill, but if you can name who that player is, let me hear it. Paul O'Niell's don't come along everyday.
25
BronXBombers51
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 11949
(Past Year: 54)
Joined: 8 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Postby dimaggio5 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 1:59 am

davidmarver wrote:If you don't think Kotsay's a gamer you haven't watched him play or you don't appreciate the little things in baseball. Kotsay is more than a stopgap (he's only 29) and to compare him to Chad Curtis is laughable. In Kotsay's worst season he hit .266. Curtis is a CAREER .264 hitter. Kotsay is actually hitting below his career norms (minus RBI) right now so I don't see how his stock would be so high.


I won't get into symantecs over percentages or a 10-15 point swing in averages. Curtis is a lifetime 264 hitter however he batted between 270 and 300 when he was a Yank, When all is said and done with Kotsay's career let's see his career batting average at that time. I'm sure that it won't be much better than Curtis. So if his potential is to be a average offensive player with sparkplug potential who does the little things why should the Yanks trade 2 prospects who haven;t peaked yet in the minors? Who upsides as major leaguer is far better than Kotsay's? Kotsay is 29 and he's struggling in his first year as a ALer so is this to suggest that next year when he is 30 he is going to finally breakout? And if he does he has 2 years left before the inevitable decline begins. So again is it worth trading 2 sub 24 aged prospects for a soon to be 30 something who has been nothing more than a teaser. Nope. As far as the little things go without the standout offensvie skills or pop they mean absolutely nothing on a any team. No offense to Twins fan but look at the Twins. Every player is well schooled and they can all do the little things however until someone stands out offensively head and shoulders above the rest they will never win a WS agianst the other power teams in both the AL and NL. However with Morneau and Mauer now fulltime this will probably change for them as these players are probably going to be some of the best players in the majors. Besides the Yanks have players who already do the lilttle things. The problem is that they have too many hackers in the lineup and the team lacks players who can hit and have heart. Besides I have to question Kotsay. Beane is not dope at talent evaluation. If Kotsay was a keeper he would not be shopping him like a 5 cent floozy. He'es been shopping him and Byrnes for months now. Bynes since March I believe. Kotsay if traded will be with his 4 team. Now the teams he was traded from both Florida and SD weren't teams that were overflowing with stud OFs in fact Kotsay was a Marlin after they traded Wilson and Floyd and really needed OF's yet they traded him because he was dispensible. SAme with SD, last year you guys had no idea Klesko was going to have year he had this year and yet you traded him because he was dispensible. Oakland's OF's are not exactly all world. If Kotsay and Bynes were all that special then I'm sure Beane would keep 1 or both but they are not anything special and are hence dispensible. ANd it can;t be money because since they dumped Mulder and Hudson they do have some flexiblity with the $$ however Beane doensn;t see value in keeping marginal fundamentally sound ballplayers who will never be anything but average and I agree with him. Beane is no fool and he never gives anything away for free so if Kotsay was anything close to an Edmonds or a Jeter in terms of heart and the lil things he wouldn't be shopping him like a pimp. Buyer beware of Billy Beane bearing gifts. Here are Kotsay's stats. There is nothing there that shows he will be anything more than a marginal fundamentally sound sparkplug ballplayer. If we needed a sparkplug we'd call up Bubba Crosby from the AAA not trade 2 very good prospects for Kotsay. We need heart and pop.


Year Team G AB H 2B 3B HR RBI R BB K SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
1997 FLA 14 52 10 1 1 0 4 5 4 7 3 0 .192 .250 .250 .500
1998 FLA 154 578 161 25 7 11 68 72 34 61 10 5 .279 .319 .403 .722
1999 FLA 148 495 134 23 9 8 50 57 29 50 7 6 .271 .311 .402 .713
2000 FLA 152 530 158 31 5 12 57 87 42 46 19 9 .298 .350 .443 .793
2001 SD 119 406 118 29 1 10 58 67 48 58 13 5 .291 .366 .441 .807
2002 SD 153 578 169 27 7 17 61 82 59 89 11 9 .292 .359 .452 .810
2003 SD 128 482 128 28 4 7 38 64 56 82 6 3 .266 .343 .384 .726
2004 OAK 148 606 190 37 3 15 63 78 55 70 8 5 .314 .370 .459 .829
2005 OAK 74 302 85 19 1 5 41 41 27 27 3 3 .281 .339 .401 .740
Image

It's not just the Tradition.....its Aura and Mystique
dimaggio5
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 472
Joined: 5 Feb 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Monument Park, Yankee Stadium

Postby dimaggio5 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:09 am

BronXBombers51 wrote:
davidmarver wrote:If you don't think Kotsay's a gamer you haven't watched him play or you don't appreciate the little things in baseball. Kotsay is more than a stopgap (he's only 29) and to compare him to Chad Curtis is laughable. In Kotsay's worst season he hit .266. Curtis is a CAREER .264 hitter. Kotsay is actually hitting below his career norms (minus RBI) right now so I don't see how his stock would be so high.


I agree. I haven't watched him a whole lot, but I've seen him enough and heard enough about him to really like the way he plays.

It's easy to say the Yankees need the next Paul O'Neill, but if you can name who that player is, let me hear it. Paul O'Niell's don't come along everyday.



No he doesn;t but there are alot of players whom have the potential and are far superior and younger than a 30 year old marginal Kotsay.


As far as names......
Austin Kearns is out there and has been on the mkt since April.
Lance Nix
Xavier Nady
Wells
Hawpe
Holliday
Gerut


The first 4 have been mentioned in potential trades so it can be taken that they are available the others are young exciting players who are younger and equal in skills to the 29 year old Kotsay. Their ceiling is also higher.

A more high risk palyer is Jason Dubois from the cubs. Unproven but a better player to take a chance on than Kotsay.

Again Kotsay is going to be 30 and other then Brady Clark how many 30 somethings have you seen breakout.
Image

It's not just the Tradition.....its Aura and Mystique
dimaggio5
Minor League Mentor
Minor League Mentor

User avatar

Posts: 472
Joined: 5 Feb 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Monument Park, Yankee Stadium

Postby davidmarver » Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:27 am

I won't get into symantecs over percentages or a 10-15 point swing in averages. Curtis is a lifetime 264 hitter however he batted between 270 and 300 when he was a Yank, When all is said and done with Kotsay's career let's see his career batting average at that time. I'm sure that it won't be much better than Curtis. So if his potential is to be a average offensive player with sparkplug potential who does the little things why should the Yanks trade 2 prospects who haven;t peaked yet in the minors? Who upsides as major leaguer is far better than Kotsay's?

First off, what exactly is so terrible with Chad Curtis? Didn't the Yankees win when they had him? Back to now...why would Kotsay cost 2 prospects? He's having a down year, statistically, except for rbi's and he does make a considerable amount of money for an A. There are plenty of major leaguers with more upside than Kotsay, but none are realistic acquisitions unless the Yankees do part with prospects. And even then, the Yankees are bringing in another high profile player and they don't need that; Kotsay is quiet, he flies under the radar, he's a typical late 90's Yankee...something the Yankees desperately need.

Kotsay is 29 and he's struggling in his first year as a ALer so is this to suggest that next year when he is 30 he is going to finally breakout? And if he does he has 2 years left before the inevitable decline begins. So again is it worth trading 2 sub 24 aged prospects for a soon to be 30 something who has been nothing more than a teaser. Nope. As far as the little things go without the standout offensvie skills or pop they mean absolutely nothing on a any team. No offense to Twins fan but look at the Twins. Every player is well schooled and they can all do the little things however until someone stands out offensively head and shoulders above the rest they will never win a WS agianst the other power teams in both the AL and NL.

Where to begin? First of all, Kotsay is in his second year in the AL, not his first.

Secondly, while statistically he's having a down-year, that doesn't mean he's struggling. I've stressed this many times, but I guess I'll have to do it again; Kotsay does the little things. Just to stress how important those little things are; what was the turning point in the ALCS last season? Millar's walk and Roberts stolen base. I don't think anyone argues that. Do not tell me every player can do the little things. Trust me, Sean Burroughs cannot. He doesn't hit behind runners, he doesn't slide correctly, he isn't a very heads-up baserunner or fielder, etc. Some players, no matter how well they can see and hit a baseball, do not make good gamers. Kotsay is not one of those; he knows how to play. Choosing not to have him would be a mistake.

And how would Kotsay be a teaser? You know what you get with Kotsay...it isn't like he's a feast-or-famine flashy player. Kotsay provides stability to a team who has had too much instability the past calendar year. Prospects, more than anything else, are teasers because they have talent and hype, but haven't pieced it together yet. That said, please don't refer to Mark Kotsay as a teaser.
Besides the Yanks have players who already do the lilttle things. The problem is that they have too many hackers in the lineup and the team lacks players who can hit and have heart. Besides I have to question Kotsay. Beane is not dope at talent evaluation. If Kotsay was a keeper he would not be shopping him like a 5 cent floozy.


That's the nature of Billy Beane...he doesn't keep older players around. Besides, he has a quandry of talent to his disposal in the minor leagues...he needs to bring that up while they're still young. Billy Beane dealt Ramon Hernandez at the beginning of last season...he's been terrible hasn't he? No one is perfect...Beane's just trying to find playing time for the younger players while grabbing another younger player in the process. Nothing wrong with that.

He'es been shopping him and Byrnes for months now. Bynes since March I believe. Kotsay if traded will be with his 4 team. Now the teams he was traded from both Florida and SD weren't teams that were overflowing with stud OFs in fact Kotsay was a Marlin after they traded Wilson and Floyd and really needed OF's yet they traded him because he was dispensible. SAme with SD, last year you guys had no idea Klesko was going to have year he had this year and yet you traded him because he was dispensible.


The reason San Diego traded Kotsay was because there was a far greater need on the team and that was at catcher. Do you even know who the catcher was before Hernandez? Tom Lampkin, Gary Bennett, Wiki Gonzalez, Ben Davis...the list goes on of terrible catchers the Padres have had. That was the reason behind the trade; acquiring an all-star catcher.

And actually, I did have an idea Klesko was going to have a year like he is having (although I don't think you know Kotsay was traded before last season, not before this season).
http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/foru ... &&start=15
http://www.fantasybaseballcafe.com/foru ... &&start=30

Do you even know who the Marlins got for Kotsay? They got Eric Owens (another true gamer) who could replace Kotsay in Florida, as well as Matt Clement and a useful utilityman Cesar Crespo.

Oakland's OF's are not exactly all world. If Kotsay and Bynes were all that special then I'm sure Beane would keep 1 or both but they are not anything special and are hence dispensible. ANd it can;t be money because since they dumped Mulder and Hudson they do have some flexiblity with the $$ however Beane doensn;t see value in keeping marginal fundamentally sound ballplayers who will never be anything but average and I agree with him. Beane is no fool and he never gives anything away for free so if Kotsay was anything close to an Edmonds or a Jeter in terms of heart and the lil things he wouldn't be shopping him like a pimp. Buyer beware of Billy Beane bearing gifts. Here are Kotsay's stats. There is nothing there that shows he will be anything more than a marginal fundamentally sound sparkplug ballplayer. If we needed a sparkplug we'd call up Bubba Crosby from the AAA not trade 2 very good prospects for Kotsay. We need heart and pop.


I applaud you for posting Kotsay's statistics. How many 'moved runners over' did he have? How about outfield assists? You should post those statistics, too, since almost every outfield assist saves a run and moving runners over produces runs.

I finally have a good player to compare Kotsay to: Johnny Damon with less speed but a much better arm, a quieter mouth, and less age. But you probably wanted Damon when those rumors arose, didn't you? And while we're speaking about "rumors", lemme get one thing straight; Xavier Nady is going nowhere. I am sure of that. Quit calling them rumors too, they're nothing more than talkshow fodder.
Image
davidmarver
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyePick 3 ChampionLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 6154
Joined: 11 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: 5.5 Hole

Postby bigh0rt » Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:40 am

Back to now...why would Kotsay cost 2 prospects? He's having a down year, statistically, except for rbi's and he does make a considerable amount of money for an A.


That's the reported going rate for him, out of Oakland. Has been all year, pretty much. It's what Oakland was asking from the Mets (or Cameron and a prospect), and every report I read says that's still the price.

I think the main point that's being made here is if the Yankees want anything other than a temporary stopgap in Center, they may want to try an alternate route. Because it is my opinion that they can acquire somebody who not only does the little things that Kotsay does (I'm not denying that he does them), as well as put up a better line.
Image
bigh0rt
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
CafeholicCafe WriterGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 24815
(Past Year: 360)
Joined: 3 Jun 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Crowding The Plate

Postby BronXBombers51 » Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:11 am

dimaggio5 wrote:
BronXBombers51 wrote:
davidmarver wrote:If you don't think Kotsay's a gamer you haven't watched him play or you don't appreciate the little things in baseball. Kotsay is more than a stopgap (he's only 29) and to compare him to Chad Curtis is laughable. In Kotsay's worst season he hit .266. Curtis is a CAREER .264 hitter. Kotsay is actually hitting below his career norms (minus RBI) right now so I don't see how his stock would be so high.


I agree. I haven't watched him a whole lot, but I've seen him enough and heard enough about him to really like the way he plays.

It's easy to say the Yankees need the next Paul O'Neill, but if you can name who that player is, let me hear it. Paul O'Niell's don't come along everyday.



No he doesn;t but there are alot of players whom have the potential and are far superior and younger than a 30 year old marginal Kotsay.


As far as names......
Austin Kearns is out there and has been on the mkt since April.
Lance Nix
Xavier Nady
Wells
Hawpe
Holliday
Gerut


The first 4 have been mentioned in potential trades so it can be taken that they are available the others are young exciting players who are younger and equal in skills to the 29 year old Kotsay. Their ceiling is also higher.

A more high risk palyer is Jason Dubois from the cubs. Unproven but a better player to take a chance on than Kotsay.

Again Kotsay is going to be 30 and other then Brady Clark how many 30 somethings have you seen breakout.


Austin Kearns? Dude, you can't be serious. Kotsay is lightyears ahead of Kearns in my book.

San Diego won't deal Nady, contrary to the reports. I don't see any situation that they would want to. They are going to win the NL West and they'll need every piece they have to make a run at the World Series.

I don't like Lance Nix. Hawpe, Holliday and Gerut? Doesn't thrill me.

When you say Wells I assume you mean Vernon Wells, and he's the only person on that list that appeals to me. However, he's signed through 2007 and I highly doubt the Blue Jays would even consider dealing him now, much less to division-rival Yankees.

Kotsay makes the most sense. He's a career .284 hitter, plays greeeatt defense, great arm, has plenty of speed (used to steal 20-25 in FLA and SD....only reason that's down is because Oakland doesn't believe in stealing bases) and he can bat 2nd for us, behind Jeter.

He's a tough, hardnose, 100% player. DavidMarver, who watched him much more than any of us, says so as well. Those qualities are qualities that O'Neill had. I'm not saying Kotsay is Paul O'Neill or has near the talent that O'Neill did, but from what I've seen, he's got similar qualities.
25
BronXBombers51
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Mock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 11949
(Past Year: 54)
Joined: 8 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

PreviousNext

Return to New York Yankees

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Today's Games
Thursday, Aug. 21
(All times are EST, weather icons show forecast for game time)

Houston at NY Yankees
(1:05 pm)
Cleveland at Minnesota
(1:10 pm)
Detroit at Tampa Bay
(1:10 pm)
indoors
Arizona at Washington
(4:05 pm)
LA Angels at Boston
(7:10 pm)
Atlanta at Cincinnati
(7:10 pm)
San Francisco at Chi Cubs
(8:05 pm)
San Diego at LA Dodgers
(10:10 pm)

  • Fantasy Baseball
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact