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Doesn't get much better than Clemens

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Postby The Big Papi » Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:45 pm

chadxor wrote:
Mack Daddy 281 wrote:
chadxor wrote:whatever. hindsight is everything. it's ridiculous you're all acting like clemens should have been considered a lock prior to this year. it's even more insane you're suggesting you expected these numbers

there were too many questions surrounding clemens this season. he wasn't as dominant as, say, randy, which hurt his stock. he also played for a team we knew would be horrible, not to mention there was talk of retirement

TWO years ago he was already written off. forget that? he was simply average two years in a row and one season wasn't going to change my opinion of that

and, oh yeah, he's turnin forty freakin three in under 2 months.

personally, no regrets not picking him up. he always went too high for my tastes and i still feel people are asking unfair value. sure, he's a workhorse, but what if he gets a mild injury? any other pitcher would be out for two-three weeks while clemens would be considering early retirement


Are you talking about 2002, that would be 3 years ago, where he had 13 wins and an ERA over 4, thats the only *down* year I see recently. 2003 he was 17-9 with a 3.91 ERA and 1.21 WHIP. He followed that up with a studly year last year, going 18-4, 2.98 ERA and 1.16 WHIP. So your telling me that somehow, a *bad* year, 3 years ago, followed by 2 good/great years is going to make people write him off.

Yes players start to fade, but he only seems to be getting stronger, at worst if he isn't getting stronger, he is still a horse of a pitcher who delivers. Not sure where you get the "drop off" part, or "drop off trend".

As far as age, Bonds has been going strong minus this year, and he gets drafted even higher, age shouldn't be that big of a factor, Randy Johnson always gets drafted high and he's only a year younger than Clemens. In a redraft, age shouldn't be a big deal when the player has proven there numbers year in and year out.


Basically what i'm trying to say is, I love having Clemens on my team lol.


regardless of what you say, 2002/2003 were significant drop offs from clemen's normal status. it was perfectly logical to consider the possibility that 2004 was somewhat of a fluke since he had just gotten off of two years that were simply average. did he do something tremendously different in preperation for that year? no. well, except for gettin that bangin' (oh lord, did i just use the word bangin'?) vehicle

i'd love having clemens on my team. however, that's not the point; prior to this season it was not out of the question to think that there would be a pretty significant drop off. i was expecting 02/03 for 05, and since i play in keeper leagues, his value was essentially minimal


I do understand what your saying, but IMO i'm just not seeing it. His 2002 was just a average year, BUT he followed that up by getting close to his career avg, he did give up almost a run more still, but down a bit from the previous year, and his WHIP was right on par with his career average. So basically you could say 2002 was more of the fluke year if you really wanted to analyze it before this year started, just based off his improvement from the 02 to 03 season. If there was any doubt that 02 was a fluke year or not, he pitched that great year last year, which should've been enough to show that with his improvement from 02 to 03, and then his 04, he would've been great this year. How great? Well I didn't have a prediction/projection for him coming into the year because I go by the strategy draft bats, and trade for pitching later, so I traded for Clemens AFTER his great start.

But for your situation, yea in a keeper league his value is most defintley minimal and this arguement is useless lol.
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Re: Doesn't get much better than Clemens

Postby nuggets » Sat Jun 18, 2005 8:31 pm

JTWood wrote:
Yoda wrote:this guy is unbelievable. On any other team, he'd have 10-12 Ws. His ERA is all the way down to 1.56... To think that most people wrote him off at the beginning of the season. Those of us who drafted him are laughing all the way to the bank. ;-D

I agree with the 10-12 wins thing, but you also have to admit that in just about any other division, his ERA would probably be a good deal higher. The NL Central is pretty bad.


Hehe, overlooking the gem he piched against your boys?
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Postby RAmst23 » Sun Jun 19, 2005 7:18 pm

Your statement contradicted your argument chad. You say no one thought he would perform well, and yet he was drafted too high for your tastes. Therefore, people thought he would perform well because they were drafting him higher. So yes, many people did think he would do very well this season. Did anyone predict an ERA under 2? No of course not, but many thought he would continue to be a top 10 pitcher, regardless of age.
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Postby chadxor » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:17 pm

RAmst23 wrote:Your statement contradicted your argument chad. You say no one thought he would perform well, and yet he was drafted too high for your tastes. Therefore, people thought he would perform well because they were drafting him higher. So yes, many people did think he would do very well this season. Did anyone predict an ERA under 2? No of course not, but many thought he would continue to be a top 10 pitcher, regardless of age.


i don't remember saying 'no one thought he would perform well.' maybe you misunderstood something i said?

the argument i'm trying to make is that clemens had a bunch of questions around him before this season; it's crazy how some of you people are suggesting we were idiots for questioning him.
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Postby chadxor » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:18 pm

but this is stupid

he's kickin ass this season, simply put. guess that's all that matters ;-D
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Postby Yoda » Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:32 pm

chadxor wrote:
RAmst23 wrote:Your statement contradicted your argument chad. You say no one thought he would perform well, and yet he was drafted too high for your tastes. Therefore, people thought he would perform well because they were drafting him higher. So yes, many people did think he would do very well this season. Did anyone predict an ERA under 2? No of course not, but many thought he would continue to be a top 10 pitcher, regardless of age.


i don't remember saying 'no one thought he would perform well.' maybe you misunderstood something i said?

the argument i'm trying to make is that clemens had a bunch of questions around him before this season; it's crazy how some of you people are suggesting we were idiots for questioning him.


Well, a lot of people didn't even put him on top 20. At the same time, Clemens showed NO signs of slowing down in 04 all the way through the playoffs. So yeah people were idiots for questioning him.
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Postby ravenmad22 » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:26 pm

As long as he's playing Clemens is a top 5 pitcher. Period.
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Postby Octavian » Mon Jun 20, 2005 8:42 pm

chadxor wrote:whatever. hindsight is everything. it's ridiculous you're all acting like clemens should have been considered a lock prior to this year. it's even more insane you're suggesting you expected these numbers

there were too many questions surrounding clemens this season. he wasn't as dominant as, say, randy, which hurt his stock. he also played for a team we knew would be horrible, not to mention there was talk of retirement

TWO years ago he was already written off. forget that? he was simply average two years in a row and one season wasn't going to change my opinion of that

and, oh yeah, he's turnin forty freakin three in under 2 months.

personally, no regrets not picking him up. he always went too high for my tastes and i still feel people are asking unfair value. sure, he's a workhorse, but what if he gets a mild injury? any other pitcher would be out for two-three weeks while clemens would be considering early retirement
fa

No regrets in not picking up a guy that dominant? Whatever. You're just bitter because you probably wrote him off and now you're eating it. A lot of people had faith in Rocket... what questionmarks surrounded him might I ask? Health? No. Age? Cleared that concern up for the past 3 years. Houston sucking? Perhaps that effects his wins, but not his K, WHIP or ERA. There weren't many leagues that he didn't go within the first 3-4 rounds that I drafted in... so... people expected him to be an Ace again, and there was no reason for them to think otherwise.

Who wrote him off 2 years ago? Morons, that's who. :-t

Oh, and the not as dominant as Unit nonsense... Clemens pitched in the AL most of his career, since going to the NL he's been simply unhittable. Unit goes to the AL, he's getting knocked around. NL pitchers are where it's at, it's just easier to pitch in that league... you face 8 guys, not 9... among other reasons. Oh and before you get your panties in a twist and go on a "OMGOMGOMG Randy pitched in the AL with teh Marinars!" Yes, he did... and he wasn't nearly as effective on the Mariners than ANY of his seasons in Arizona.
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Postby chadxor » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:59 pm

SominaDei wrote:
chadxor wrote:whatever. hindsight is everything. it's ridiculous you're all acting like clemens should have been considered a lock prior to this year. it's even more insane you're suggesting you expected these numbers

there were too many questions surrounding clemens this season. he wasn't as dominant as, say, randy, which hurt his stock. he also played for a team we knew would be horrible, not to mention there was talk of retirement

TWO years ago he was already written off. forget that? he was simply average two years in a row and one season wasn't going to change my opinion of that

and, oh yeah, he's turnin forty freakin three in under 2 months.

personally, no regrets not picking him up. he always went too high for my tastes and i still feel people are asking unfair value. sure, he's a workhorse, but what if he gets a mild injury? any other pitcher would be out for two-three weeks while clemens would be considering early retirement
fa

No regrets in not picking up a guy that dominant? Whatever. You're just bitter because you probably wrote him off and now you're eating it. A lot of people had faith in Rocket... what questionmarks surrounded him might I ask? Health? No. Age? Cleared that concern up for the past 3 years. Houston sucking? Perhaps that effects his wins, but not his K, WHIP or ERA. There weren't many leagues that he didn't go within the first 3-4 rounds that I drafted in... so... people expected him to be an Ace again, and there was no reason for them to think otherwise.

Who wrote him off 2 years ago? Morons, that's who. :-t

Oh, and the not as dominant as Unit nonsense... Clemens pitched in the AL most of his career, since going to the NL he's been simply unhittable. Unit goes to the AL, he's getting knocked around. NL pitchers are where it's at, it's just easier to pitch in that league... you face 8 guys, not 9... among other reasons. Oh and before you get your panties in a twist and go on a "OMGOMGOMG Randy pitched in the AL with teh Marinars!" Yes, he did... and he wasn't nearly as effective on the Mariners than ANY of his seasons in Arizona.


now, even though i tried to end this utterly pointless subject, i guess i'll just continue to tease your fancy for inane conversation :-t

look man, i'm way too preoccupied with things to live in regret. as cliche as this may sound, i've got more important things to do than feel remorse over a fantasy baseball decision. what i do have time for is research, my leagues, and adjusting.

but, that is irrelevent. this is an argument about hindsight, which you don't seem to understand. i'm just saying (again) that prior to this season there were too many questions about him for me to consider him a top pitcher

i don't care what player it is, at 42 there begins to be questions about a player's health. you can go ahead and pretend that they're less of a risk, but they're not. bodies break down. who was to say that this wasn't the year for it to start?

when drafting clemens, don't even tell me you do so with the utmost confidence. admit that there was at least a little restraint. if there wasn't, well, congrats, you made the right call. but you're a rare breed that disregards the actuality of aging. i don't care if he was fine last year or the year before; it's gotta start sometime.

FYI, i had clemens 15-20 for this year and around 25-30 for my keeper leagues. i take few risks when i draft and i did (and still do) consider clemens somewhat of one. age scares me since i only do keepers. and when i say write off, i meant as a top pitcher. did anyone that didn't touch the pipe expect THAT performance last year? didn't think so.
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Postby Yoda » Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:07 am

chadxor wrote:
SominaDei wrote:
chadxor wrote:whatever. hindsight is everything. it's ridiculous you're all acting like clemens should have been considered a lock prior to this year. it's even more insane you're suggesting you expected these numbers

there were too many questions surrounding clemens this season. he wasn't as dominant as, say, randy, which hurt his stock. he also played for a team we knew would be horrible, not to mention there was talk of retirement

TWO years ago he was already written off. forget that? he was simply average two years in a row and one season wasn't going to change my opinion of that

and, oh yeah, he's turnin forty freakin three in under 2 months.

personally, no regrets not picking him up. he always went too high for my tastes and i still feel people are asking unfair value. sure, he's a workhorse, but what if he gets a mild injury? any other pitcher would be out for two-three weeks while clemens would be considering early retirement
fa

No regrets in not picking up a guy that dominant? Whatever. You're just bitter because you probably wrote him off and now you're eating it. A lot of people had faith in Rocket... what questionmarks surrounded him might I ask? Health? No. Age? Cleared that concern up for the past 3 years. Houston sucking? Perhaps that effects his wins, but not his K, WHIP or ERA. There weren't many leagues that he didn't go within the first 3-4 rounds that I drafted in... so... people expected him to be an Ace again, and there was no reason for them to think otherwise.

Who wrote him off 2 years ago? Morons, that's who. :-t

Oh, and the not as dominant as Unit nonsense... Clemens pitched in the AL most of his career, since going to the NL he's been simply unhittable. Unit goes to the AL, he's getting knocked around. NL pitchers are where it's at, it's just easier to pitch in that league... you face 8 guys, not 9... among other reasons. Oh and before you get your panties in a twist and go on a "OMGOMGOMG Randy pitched in the AL with teh Marinars!" Yes, he did... and he wasn't nearly as effective on the Mariners than ANY of his seasons in Arizona.


now, even though i tried to end this utterly pointless subject, i guess i'll just continue to tease your fancy for inane conversation :-t

look man, i'm way too preoccupied with things to live in regret. as cliche as this may sound, i've got more important things to do than feel remorse over a fantasy baseball decision. what i do have time for is research, my leagues, and adjusting.

but, that is irrelevent. this is an argument about hindsight, which you don't seem to understand. i'm just saying (again) that prior to this season there were too many questions about him for me to consider him a top pitcher

i don't care what player it is, at 42 there begins to be questions about a player's health. you can go ahead and pretend that they're less of a risk, but they're not. bodies break down. who was to say that this wasn't the year for it to start?

when drafting clemens, don't even tell me you do so with the utmost confidence. admit that there was at least a little restraint. if there wasn't, well, congrats, you made the right call. but you're a rare breed that disregards the actuality of aging. i don't care if he was fine last year or the year before; it's gotta start sometime.

FYI, i had clemens 15-20 for this year and around 25-30 for my keeper leagues. i take few risks when i draft and i did (and still do) consider clemens somewhat of one. age scares me since i only do keepers. and when i say write off, i meant as a top pitcher. did anyone that didn't touch the pipe expect THAT performance last year? didn't think so.


Just because you took Greinke over Clemens... :-D
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