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Livan with 150 pitches thrown tonight

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Postby vladrules » Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:17 am

I remember reading an article saying that it was highly likely that a pitcher's next start won't be as good after throwing a lot of pitches. The pitchers they mentioned were the Becketts, Burnetts, the CHC guys, and others who have not been trained or developed like Livan. Then again, a lot of pitches has different meaning. Livan isn't like any pitcher we have nowadays so he isn't pup like the FLA or CHC boys.

Is this the most he's thrown? Everyone made interesting comments. He is definitely a throwback and if you count all the pitches in between he probably has throw 150-200 pitches on gameday b4. The fact that he mixes speed is a great point. Think his Ks are a bit down but in the end his numbers will be solid.

Realize SP wouldn't pull himself out but just wondering if Livan gave an ok to Frank to continue or if Frank asked Livan. I sure he knows his body but have to wonder who's idea it was? Livan can pitch for my team anyday.

Just worried that this 40 year old (who knows how old he is?) and his body might not handle the most pitches he's ever thrown in a game. Oak has been bad but they seem to get something. Fact that Livan will get to face a SP instead of DH and Oak will be overmatched vs a veteran pitcher, I'm gonna start him. I hope for 5 or 6 ip, 3 er, 8 hits/bb and 5 or 6 k. If he does bad (knock on wood), it's understandable. Bet Dusty Baker wish he had Livan to play with since Livan proof that his way is right! :-) Then again Dusty would leave him in for 200 pitches. lol.

Go Anvil. My bro and i can him bc it's an anagram of his name. Additionally, he's kind of heavy and solid. Plus, he seems to be made of steel/iron just like the block for hammering. :-D :-)
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Postby KPucks » Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:46 pm

AKhomebrewer wrote:
Twinskies wrote:...20 years ago this would just be another quality start. Livan would be back out there after 4 days rest, fresh and ready to go...

35 years ago he'd be back out there after 3 days rest. I think the pen had gotten a heavy workout over the last few days ... still, it's a bit unusual to see this in the 21st century (although I saw a high school game a few years ago where a kid threw 190 pitches :-D)


I was in a league when I was about 10 or 11 and it was the semifinal game. We went into extra innings and by the end of the game the opposing pitcher had thrown 243 pitches (I still remember that number :-D ). It was insane. That coach had no idea what he was doing imo, but the kid was still pitching well. Luckily we won the game, but I can't imagine the pain that kid must have been in the next day.
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Postby warrick95 » Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:07 pm

Jack-In-A-Box wrote:
warrick95 wrote:He's a horse who's more valuable to his team than to fantasy teams because he provides many quality innings. Fantasy teams are better off finding alternatives who put up better numbers even if that's over less innings.


I love your thinking. It's why every year I'm able to get Livan. He's the 8th best ranked SP in my points league. But still every year he slides to the later rounds. His WHIP isn't that great but the guy knows how to WIN. And get decent K's and have a decent ERA. So if he helps me in 3 of 4 pitching cats in roto scoring as well, how is he still not valueable to fantasy teams?


Well, that's in a points format...certainly he'd be valuable since y'all get points when your pitcher gets an out (per IP I think is the specific scoring method). In your league, your leaguemates apparently don't have the scoring system understood very well if he's slipping that far.

Most roto league formats have innings pitched limits. Thus, it makes more sense to get more quality than quantity in terms of innings. I'd rather stick in a solid setup man to lower my ratios and increase strikeouts like Mike Gonzalez on top of a pitcher with less innings than use a guy like Livan. Simply put, I'll get better ratios and Ks out of the same number of innings.

He's considerably more valuable in H2H leagues without inning limits and points leagues than roto leagues w/ IP limits. In the latter, he's just an above average pitcher who I'd prefer to only have at the back of the rotation.

By the way, if any of y'all were watching the softball game on ESPN2, Alicia Hollowell of Arizona just pitched 13 IP (I believe approximately 170+ pitches) and is likely pitching again tonight. Talk about a freaking horse. Of course, they've said many times that an underhand throwing motion puts basically no stress on the shoulder and elbow like an overhand motion does.
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Postby ilsa » Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:41 pm

In college Scot Shields threw a 16 inning complete game in 261 pitches.
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:45 pm

High schools and colleges haven't yet heard much about the possible dangers of high pitch counts. Every year, there are stud college pitchers throwing 140+ pitches in games during the College World Seres. Same thing happens in high school state tournaments.

MLB teams are getting pitchers after they've already been put through the wringer by their high school, select team, and college coaches.
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Postby thehat » Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:55 pm

BobbyRoberto wrote:High schools and colleges haven't yet heard much about the possible dangers of high pitch counts. Every year, there are stud college pitchers throwing 140+ pitches in games during the College World Seres. Same thing happens in high school state tournaments.

MLB teams are getting pitchers after they've already been put through the wringer by their high school, select team, and college coaches.


Bobby...they know about it, every single one of them (the HS and college coaches). They just choose to ignore it to satisfy their own needs.
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Postby CubsFan7724 » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:16 pm

If Livan played for the Cubs, all we'd hear is about how Dusty is ruining his arm and such, just like he destroyed Woods, broke Priors elbow, and ended Zambranos career... :-D
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:39 pm

I think the Cubs should trade for Livan so we can see Dusty Baker send him out to pitch both games of a double-header one day.
Roger Angell: I was talking with Bob Gibson and I said: 'Are you always this competitive?' He said: 'Oh, I think so. I got a three-year old daughter, and I've played about 500 games of tic-tac-toe with her and she hasn't beat me yet.'
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Postby Madison » Sun Jun 05, 2005 12:19 am

BobbyRoberto wrote:I think the Cubs should trade for Livan so we can see Dusty Baker send him out to pitch both games of a double-header one day.


Actually, I seem to remember something about Wakefield doing that once. :-?
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Postby RynMan » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:28 am

The Miner Part 2 wrote:Tommy John would be so proud.


Thats gold. ;-D

no pun intended.
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