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Postby slomo007 » Sat May 28, 2005 1:09 am

thehat wrote:
slomo007 wrote:Wagner is not ready to close....yet.

Weathers is not a Major league caliber pitcher...anymore.

Graves is their only real option and I'm completely baffled as to why he didn't keep the job. He converted 10 of 12 save opps. Stupid, absolutely stupid.


Graves was beyond awful, and he sealed his fate when he lobbed the middle finger at the heckler.

None of these guys have any legit value at this point (Graves, Mercker, Wagner, Weathers). Better off with a Jesse Crain, who won't get any saves but is well on his way toward garnering Vulture of the Year honors.


He just had a rough month or so, no reason to hit the panic button and thrust the team's best pitching prospect in to a role which he isn't ready for yet....running the risk of completely destroying the confidence he's already built up. Regardless of how "bad" Graves was....he was a closer, and he CLOSED 10 of 12 games (I think those are the right numbers). If Cincy had not used him in so many non-save situations, he'd still have the job today. Who cares how he pitches when there's no pressure, I just want him to pitch well when the game's on the line.
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Postby Eradicator » Sat May 28, 2005 1:12 am

Really? You guys are down on Wagner after one BS where he gave up a couple of hits? I've made a lot of past mistakes cutting promising FA pickups way too prematurely. Wagner's got the talent, the pedigree, and now, the opportunity. His leash is a little longer than one BS for my roster. He was a free FA pickup, what've you got to lose?
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Postby slomo007 » Sat May 28, 2005 1:14 am

Eradicator wrote:Really? You guys are down on Wagner after one BS where he gave up a couple of hits? I've made a lot of past mistakes cutting promising FA pickups way too prematurely. Wagner's got the talent, the pedigree, and now, the opportunity. His leash is a little longer than one BS for my roster. He was a free FA pickup, what've you got to lose?


Not sure if you were referring this to me....but I never said Wagner should be cut. I said he's not ready for the job, and won't be a reliable closer...but he's got enough talent to warrant a roster spot...you're right about that. Who knows, he could be awesome given the talent he has. I just truly believe he's not ready for the role and would have been better suited in relief until next year. Hang on to him though.
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Postby BobbyRoberto » Sat May 28, 2005 1:15 am

If Weathers was any good, he wouldn't have played on 7 teams since 2001. He's a mediocre, league-average pitcher at best. Wagner is the future and, since the Reds are sitting at 19-29, only ahead of the crappy Houston Astros in the NL Central, why not see what Wagner can do? I wouldn't cut him just yet.
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Postby thehat » Sat May 28, 2005 1:17 am

I don't buy that, Slomo, as far as Wagner is concerned. If he's good enough to be on the big league roster, then put him the role he was selected for, or send him down to the minors and let him close games there.

Why is it any different for Wagner than it is for Chad Cordero? The Expos handed him the baseball and said here ya go, kid. He had some rough spots closing but has now grown into a guy who looks like he may indeed become a top tier finisher.

The Reds should be doing the same thing with Wagner. If he blows some games, so be it. It's not like the team has any shot to contend right now anyway (not with that starting pitching), so let's al find out if he's got the stones for the job.

As for Graves...he's toast. He blew nine saves last year, which tied him with the great Shawn Chacon. And 10/12 or not, he had been simply horrible this season.
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Postby slomo007 » Sat May 28, 2005 1:23 am

thehat wrote:I don't buy that, Slomo, as far as Wagner is concerned. If he's good enough to be on the big league roster, then put him the role he was selected for, or send him down to the minors and let him close games there.

Why is it any different for Wagner than it is for Chad Cordero? The Expos handed him the baseball and said here ya go, kid. He had some rough spots closing but has now grown into a guy who looks like he may indeed become a top tier finisher.

The Reds should be doing the same thing with Wagner. If he blows some games, so be it. It's not like the team has any shot to contend right now anyway (not with that starting pitching), so let's al find out if he's got the stones for the job.

As for Graves...he's toast. He blew nine saves last year, which tied him with the great Shawn Chacon. And 10/12 or not, he had been simply horrible this season.


But now what do the Reds do about middle relief/setup? The great thing about having Graves for the 9th was having Wagner for the 8th. Obviously Graves seems to only pitch well in save situations, so you really shouldn't use him in the 8th (not that he'll be a Red again anyways). So now the 8th inning job belongs to Weathers? Lord help us.

Cincy's bullpen hasn't been a problem all year, the starting pitching has been the problem...and even the offense has been slow to get going. Cincy was a much better team than they were playing to start the year, Kearns/Pena/Casey/Griffey/Jimenez all had slow starts. That's most of your offense.

I personally wasn't ready to throw in the towel just yet, particularly in such a weak division.
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Postby Mercer Boy » Sat May 28, 2005 1:56 am

OK, so I won't cut the dude yet...but I'm thinking about doing a stash-type thing until he proves he can get it done (at least once - like I said, 6/6 blown saves!?!?!) and with less mess.
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Postby mamorris » Sat May 28, 2005 2:29 am

Mercer Boy wrote:OK, so I won't cut the dude yet...but I'm thinking about doing a stash-type thing until he proves he can get it done (at least once - like I said, 6/6 blown saves!?!?!) and with less mess.


This is the first blown save where he was actually in position to get the save. The rest of the blown saves occurred in the 7th and 8th innings. 6/6 BS means very little.

When it comes to MR, the BS stat is, well, BS. hyuk hyuk.
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